In open threads and many other conversations, the comments turn into discussion about Boyd. A lot of the time, people are not very pleasant about Boyd.
I didn't go to Boyd. Many of my Delta Nu sisters did. I know many Boyd graduates and have seen them in action and think their performance seems to be the same as other lawyers. (Although perhaps the Boyd grads do not fall into the category of the most arrogant lawyers I've seen, so they are remiss there.)
I want to hear both sides. Law Students, this one is for you. What is good or bad about Boyd? Alums, what are your thoughts on Boyd? For the people who like to give Boyd a ton of crap in the comments, why? If it is a bad school, as you have previously alleged in the comments, what makes it that way?
I'd like to hear both sides of the story because it seems like there is nothing but hate in the comments most of the time. But I know some pretty happy and successful Boyd grads are out there. (Maybe they simply don't have the time to read the site...)
There's nothing worse than people being unpleasant about your body. Especially in today's Hollywood society.
ReplyDeleteBoyd is a great school. We get practical education and, for the most part, the profs know what they are talking about. Plus, our writing program is ranked 3rd in the nation. Let's just say when we extern for local judges, we can tell who didn't go to Boyd - Google passive voice and IRAC.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing about Boyd that sucks is its adherence to ALWD instead of Bluebook.
I chose Boyd because I like Las Vegas, have many contacts here, and want to practice here. I had the grades/LSAT score to go to most schools, and parents willing to pay any tuition, but I chose Boyd.
In other words, I am proud to go to Boyd. I will also be proud to be among the 86% of Boyd students who pass the bar.
2:51 wins the internet.
ReplyDeleteyes 2:51...at times our thoughts of Boyd have degenerated to comments on students' bodies...especially in Vegas where t&a (like the T&A billboards) is so prevalent.
ReplyDelete@2:51 - You are now a member of Delta Nu. I cannot tell you how many times I read that thing to make sure I didn't make that very mistake. Fortunately, your keen eagle eyes and quick wit caught it. Thank you for making me laugh. You do win the internet.
ReplyDeleteFor anyone else who saw it before the fix, of course, I typed Body. This is a simple illustration in the importance of not becoming overly dependent on your assistant because s/he cannot proof your anonymous blogging efforts.
As a Delta Nu sister and a Boyd graduate, it saddens me that the persona is that Boyd gradates have so little respect for the institution that not only gave its graduates a great education and gainful employment but also that completely altered the face of the legal profession in Nevada.
ReplyDeleteFor those of you not native to Nevada, establishing Boyd was a long fought battle that was ultimately won and building the school began. Dean Morgan brought in outstanding professors in order to jump start the program and for quick growth. Boyd quickly produced its charter class of graduates, which include judges, district attorneys, and members of congress.
With Boyd established, Dean White has made great strides in continuing the excellent education and is tirelessly working to enhance Boyd’s reputation and all of our degrees. Boyd’s graduating classes have continued to thrive in Nevada’s legal economy, despite the recent setbacks that everyone due to the global recession.
Graduates, be thankful for the education and opportunity that Boyd has given you. While I fully understand, appreciate, and regularly partake in well-deserved criticism, there is a place and time. Where is the loyalty and pride that is not only expected but well deserved.
@3:12
ReplyDelete2:51 here, I was just bustin your chops. I'm not trying to be one of those people who act like internet postings are supreme court briefs.
Here's the skinny:
ReplyDeleteBoyd is a decent school. It's a far cry from being the best school in the country, and a far cry from being the poorest. However, that being said, the school is still young and does have a lot of potential. For only being 10 years old, it has produced some great graduates including:
- A Fulbright Scholar
-Biglaw attorneys (as if this is something to brag about)
-Counsel for the Senate Majority Leader of the U.S.
-Attorney for the United States SEC
-U.S. Appellate clerks
-U.S. Supreme Court fellow
So again, the school is decent, and producing decent graduates. That is not to say that the school does not have serious issues and produce some idiot graduates, but what law school doesn't?
I guess I don't read the comments on here enough. I didn't realize there was Boyd-bashing going on. I graduated from Boyd several years ago and really have nothing bad to say about the place. I loved my law school experience and felt well-prepared for my post-law school career. I work at a pretty large firm in a bigger city (bigger than Vegas anyway), alongside and against folks from all over the country. I've never felt inferior to the ivy leaguers or ex-US Supreme Court clerks just because I went to a young state school. I also felt like Boyd was much more personal and collegial than some of the other law firms my coworkers attended. I know a lot has changed since I left, but I hope that spirit is still intact.
ReplyDelete@2:51 - You are funny and I totally got it. Made me laugh and I needed that today. Thank you!! Really.
ReplyDelete@Margot (3:27) - Well said. DELTA NU!
I'm surprised. This post has been up for almost an hour and there is no significant hate. I am going to assume that everyone is very busy billing and will bring the hate later. Thanks for the insight into Boyd so far!
I am a UNLV law grad. I enjoyed my experience very much. I'm glad I attended UNLV law (over other "better" schools). Having said that, I am disappointed to have seen many of the more conservative professors leave for one reason or another. Bybee, Markell, Bryant, etc., etc., etc. There is a political imbalance at the school. If you can deal with that, you will enjoy your experience and training.
ReplyDeleteBoyd can please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time.
ReplyDeleteBut, the Boyd School of Law can never please all of the people all of the time.
"Plus, our writing program is ranked 3rd in the nation. Let's just say when we extern for local judges, we can tell who didn't go to Boyd - Google passive voice and IRAC."
ReplyDeleteIt's funny you would say that considering the anecodal evidence around our office suggests that Boyd does not produce many good writers. We hire recent grads every year and I can't say we've been overly impressed. But maybe we try too hard to support the "local" law school and thus reach lower for hires than we would otherwise.
U.S. News' specialty rankings are based solely on the number of nominations you received from faculty (usually your own). Take that for what it is worth.
I don't usually go out of my way to bash Boyd. I have a sibling who is a student there. It's just laughable that anyone believes Boyd has the third best writing program in the country.
I guess if I can't sell "anecdotal" I shouldn't be criticizing anyone else, huh?
ReplyDeleteOr type "spell."
ReplyDeleteMaybe my law school should have offered a typing class . . .
4:33
ReplyDeleteIf you want to criticize the US News rankings, then at least acknowledge that it is ALL arbitrary, not just the writing program. If that's the case, then what is to say that University of Indiana (ranked 20) is actually a better school than Boyd? I can say it is laughable that anybody thinks U of I is the 20th best law school in the country, right? It's all arbitrary, but it is what it is. The fact is, they rank Boyd third-period.
I know a federal judge who has consistently recognized the poor writing from Harvard clerks compared to Boyd (as well as several other lower ranked schools).
ReplyDeleteThe value of the law school one attends is based primarily on the school's ability to get its students recognized at powerful law firms. Boyd isn't on the radar of nationally and internationally powerful law firms.
ReplyDeleteBoyd isn't Stanford or Yale, but it doesn't have to be. Boyd is fine for those who plan to stay in Nevada. The top Boyd grads will at least get a look at the bigger Nevada firms.
Not everyone is cut out for the big leagues (New York, DC, Philly, Chicago); nor is the big leagues necessarily the best place for all lawyers. Boyd wouldn't necessarily preclude the big leagues; but face it, it hasn't put a large percentage of its graduates there. That's okay, tere are several lawyers in Vegas who do very well and lead great lives and do nothing but fix traffic tickets.
2:58PM - "...for the most part, the profs know what they are talking about."
ReplyDeleteThat is a doubtful comment. Few Profs know what they are talking about at ANY law school.
I'd like to hear from grads that went to Boyd & another law school on a transfer. They are the only ones that can speak on the subject. You don't know what you don't know.
Bar pass rate is relevant, I know several Harvard grads that didn't pass the NV bar the first time, some gave up and left the state.
PS - Oh how I love Elle's posts...2:51 ain't bad either...
I am a Boyd grad. During school I regularly questioned people who transferred in from other schools about how it compared. One person who attended a top school (not Harvard or Yale, but VERY close in ranking) said professors and quality of classes was comparable, and the only marked difference was the number of really dumb gunners in class - Boyd had more. Another student who went to an unranked but not-horribly-regarded school said Boyd was WAYYYYY better.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I really liked Boyd, but of course I can't really compare it because I didn't attend any other school. I have a good-paying job in a great larger firm, don't aspire to biglaw, and am grateful for having had the opportunity to attend Boyd.
This 86% B.S. must stop. Five people from my law school took the NV bar exam and all of us passed. For those of you that went to Boyd, that is 100%.
ReplyDeleteWe know that Boyd is better than California Western or the University of La Verne.
My only real beef with Boyd is that it is too big to serve its market (essentially, southern Nevada). Vegas just doesn't need as many attorneys as they're churning out.
ReplyDeleteEither make it smaller or get more of your grads placed outside of the market, IMO.
To that federal judge who said BSL grads write better than HLS grads: in the end how much does that really matter when the vast majority of HLS grads have their pick of good jobs while only the top 10% at BSL even have a shot (and even that's not guaranteed from some BSL grads I've met).
This whole debate is lame...let's talk about something else, like more lawyers behaving badly stuff.
ReplyDelete7:06
ReplyDeleteWhat sort of moron would transfer from a T5-type school to Boyd and why?
well...although i am usually an anonymous reader, here's my 2 1/2-cents.
ReplyDeleteBoyd is good, in general/overall; like most schools, constant waves of b.s. flow through the otherwise good parts. I've met great people at boyd incl profs, admin, and students/alum.
But I've seen the b.s. river as well, stupid/ignorant admin more interested in preserving their job (in any way they can...comments?)than doing work/improving the school and professors that engage in academic discrimination and reverse-discrimination, whether against those that are not of a certain socio-religious mold or happen to be the ever-hated white (EV-EL [ala Dr. EV-EL}) male.
The local community is highly supportive as well.
Overall, 2 thumbs up.
My only problem with Boyd is the students who graduated or entered the school before it was accredited act they are so smart for getting into Boyd. I don't know why anybody would even have applied to Boyd before it was fully accredited.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, any student who entered the school on or before 2003 please explain your reasoning for choosing a school that wasn't fully accredited over another fully accredited laws school.
I'm a Boyd graduate. I work at a moderately large regional firm and I do not feel handicapped in any way by my having graduated from BSL.
ReplyDeleteAs some other comments have hinted, the writing program is overrated; I have learned much more about legal writing from patient partners and more experienced associates. That said, the national recognition on that level is nice.
There are legitimate reasons to criticize Boyd, but really no more than most other schools.
I think rabid Boyd haters have suspect motivations.
plenty of reasons, 8:42
ReplyDeleteI already lived here and didn't feel like going out of state. The tuition was dirt cheap. And, believe it or not, the school was full of great professors even while provisionally accredited. Some are still there, but many have moved on (Tobias, Markell, Bybee, and Rick Brown to name a few). Not to mention Dean Morgan had a great reputation and had the school moving in the right direction.
I realize there was less competition to get in at that time. But I don't think I'm proud of getting in. Rather, I am proud of the education I received from Boyd and the career I've built since graduating. Good lawyers can come from any school. So can bad lawyers. I'm sure Boyd has graduated its share of both. But I still think it is a good school at a great price (well, it was anyway).
I'm starting a band called "Suspect Motivations."
ReplyDelete@ November 10, 2009 2:58 PM
ReplyDeleteDid you mean: passive voice and IRAQ
J
@November 11, 2009 9:15 AM
ReplyDeleteThe other poster almost certainly meant "IRAC" as in "Issue, Rule, Analysis, Conclusion". You know, the common method for answering law school and bar exam questions. It's unlikely they meant "IRAQ" the country, as that has nothing to do with this topic.
8:46--What is this "national recongnition" that Boyd receives?
ReplyDeleteI'm only familiar with this: http://abovethelaw.com/2009/07/unlv_con_law_professor_is_runn.php
The problem with most law school legal writing programs can be summed up as "garbage in, garbage out." Many law students do not have the solid undergraduate writing skills to become "good writers" in law school.
ReplyDeleteWas there ever any doubt that Boyd would get accredited? I don't know (I wasn't here yet). But it seems to me that the sole law school in a high-growth area (was, anyway) would be a pretty good bet for earning accreditation eventually.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was in school, they were selling CRPAP in lieu of IRAC, and now I realize I don't remember what CRPAP stands for. Maybe that's why my motions always lose.
@10:50,
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you try reading his post again-it wasn't hidden. I would dare say that most people consider US News a "national" source.
Does anybody know if 3:34's post is true? If so, that is pretty impressive for Boyd grads.
ReplyDelete8:16 - spouse had been transferred to Las Vegas for an opportunity that could not be refused and somehow the student's JD was still granted from the other elite school rather than Boyd. Student transferred in for 3L.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure that makes you a visiting student - not a transfer student.
ReplyDelete"Did you mean . . . IRAQ" Classic! Must be a Boyd grad.
ReplyDelete3:59 PM is right, no pun intended.
ReplyDelete@4:02:
ReplyDeleteWhat difference does that make? The point of the discussion was regarding who has attended two different schools (one ranked higher than Boyd) and could attest to the differences. Who ends up awarding the degree means jack shit for this conversation.
9:15,
ReplyDeleteIt actually does make a difference or is at least worth pointing out. Getting the degree from, say, NYU as vs. Boyd could color the person's impressions, esp. in hindsight.
It has no effect on the differences of the schools, which a person (transfer or visiting) can attest to better than 99.9% of the posters on this board who only attended one school and not the other. Sure somebody can get jaded with time, but that goes for ANYBODY. A visiting student is still in a better position than most to explain differences.
ReplyDeleteBTW, I don't know if this was the same visiting student the prior poster was talking about, but there was a woman who visited Boyd from Harvard (same thing, spouse got tranferred), and she said they were pretty comparable. One thing she did say that was interesting, was that she thought the exams at Body were actually more difficult. Take it with a grain of salt, but that's one person's experience.
4:02: Transfer/visiting whatever - I did not grill the person on those details and never having needed to investigate those matters myself, I do not know. I agree that this distinction is not material to this discussion. What may be more material is that perhaps the other student did not want to offend me by saying "I think your school sucks." However, the bottom line is that there are great attorneys and a-holes who come from Boyd as well as great attorneys and a-holes who come from every other law school. People getting all riled up against Boyd is just silly.
ReplyDelete7:06/3:55
9:51 - no, the tranfser - oh, excuse me, "visiting" student did not attend Harvard so this would not be the same person.
ReplyDeleteI'm a recent Boyd Grad. I think Boyd is pretty middle of the road. I had a fantasic experience and extremely satisfied with the education I received. However, that being said, Boyd is not nationally recognized. Yes we are third for our writing, 9th for our dispute resolution, and I think 16th or something for our clinics....but realistically speaking, half of the country has never heard of us.
ReplyDeleteI'm very happy with my choice to attend Boyd but that is because I wanted to practice in NV. Had I wanted to go to the east coast, I definitely would have picked a diff school.
simply put, Boyd is good, but does not get the national recognition it may or may not deserve
Transfer student here
ReplyDeleteSimilar regional school ranked above and now below Boyd. No big differences.
Boyd's writing program is WAY overrated CREAC IRAC whatever it is all the same and your boss will tell you how they want it and that is that. Compulsory three semesters is why it gets high marks. LPIII is a total waste of time.
Boyd has done exceptionally well for a newer albeit state sponsored law school. It is amazing to see a Nevada law school ranked 77th in the nation. That being said, Boyd's success will be its demise.
ReplyDeleteThe law school predominantly consists of Las Vegans who went where for undergrad? UNLV. The school does not seem to attract many Northern Nevadans or even folks from out of town. Instead the law school has decimated places like CalWestern, McGeorge, Santa Clara, and many other California law schools. There is no need to go out of state when there is a law school in your backyard. It would be foolish and expensive. The next question is how can Boyd become a U of A or an ASU (where Dean Morgan and his colleagues came from). If Boyd does not improve its regional impage and stays just a local law school, it will fall from the top 100 list. With the State of Nevada having a huge budget shortfall, how can it improve and keep the momentum going. Does anyone know how much it costs the State to run Boyd? What about all those pledges and gifts totaling millions. Where did they go. When they started Boyd, they created the impression the place would be self supporting and would attract top notch faculty. Well, they got some good folks but most the faculty, quite candidly, border on the mediocre to average like most other average law schools.
I keep in touch with a Boyd 1L who transferred to an elite school.
ReplyDeleteThey said the biggest difference is the options you have at graduation especially considering how much deeper in the class employers will go at top schools.
Also, while the average member of the student body and faculty are probably on par with Boyd - you have the opportunity to work with some very, very good professors and very, very bright students which don't exist at Boyd.
They don't regret transferring.
I graduated from a top 10 school and have taught as an adjunct at Boyd.
ReplyDeleteThe biggest difference is that there is no sense of community at Boyd. No sense of engagement. It is a similar commuter mentality as the rest of the campus.
Very little, if anything, useful is taught in a law school classroom. The most important learning comes from the extracurriculars, student orgs, etc. And there isn't much of that.
The lack of engagement results in poor class prep. And some embarrassing classes with guest lecturers. When top lawyers in a field come in to speak to a class about a specific subject area, the questions shouldn't be about work-life balance. It wasn't a career seminar. The class was to further knowledge in the subject area.
For the Boyd grads who say they didn't feel disadvantaged, of course not because nothing useful is taught in law school.
And yes, there was a lot of doubt about UNLV being able to create a decent law school.
Boyd is fine. Some decent profs. A couple of decent students per class. A few decent lawyers produced a year.
Boyd is no match for U of A, Hastings, etc, but blows away Cal Western, McGeorge, etc.