I'm a Boyd student currently and have been reading a lot about the average salary of new attorneys. I want to know, what really is the average salary of a new attorney in Las Vegas? Assuming a reasonable recovery to the economy in 3 years. What do readers here make that are 0-3 yrs out of law school? Big firm, small firm, medium firm?
Hah - I wouldn't bank on more than 6 figures. Sure - large firms do, but given the state of the economy, the growing oversupply of attorneys and the realization that new attorneys know very little, I would target the 70-90k range as a starting salary, and consider it a bonus if you get more.
@9:01 - do yourself a favor, ignore starting salaries and do 2 or 3 years at a decent Insurance Defense shop (ask practing litigators which ones to avoid) to learn the ropes and then switch to plaintiff work.
Easiest path to a decent living if you're staying in this valley.
A Boyd degree in a major legal market is fairly useless. Better to stay in Nevada with it - you've got a fighting chance here. In Washington DC, New York, Boston, Chicago, or San Francisco, instead of taking depositions, you'll be asking "paper or plastic?"
On average, are we as lawyers in Las Vegas under or over-paid for our market? What do you guys/gals think? (Please answer objectively. Of course I think I, personally, should get paid more.)
According to NALP, salaries have gone down at most of the big/regional firms in town - who are typically the highest paying. If you can score 6 figures consider yourself lucky.
By way of example, Ballard now lists 115 - they used to be over 130. Holland and Hart is at 110 - used to be 120. Snell is now 105 - used to be higher. Others have lowered as well, I'd be surprised if the non-NALP-listing local firms have gone up.
So, there are a few decent paying gigs out there, but spots are more competitive than ever with fewer firms hiring. As a first-year, I'd say average will be around 80, but what you do with your career from there is your deal.
I work in commercial litigation, but I agree with 10:13 AM as to the safest path to riches (assuming no massive tort reform comes along).
As a San Francisco attorney licensed in Nevada, I can say with conviction that a Boyd diploma is less useful than a Kleenex if you want to getting hired at a mid-sized to large firm. Asbestos work at $60K, maybe.
I have worked in four legal markets in my career; San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego and Las Vegas. The San Diego and Vegas markets are comparable, which equates to about 60-75% of what you would make in SF or LA. In terms of job prospects Vegas is head and shoulders above the other three markets. Coming from a top tier school in CA, I can tell you that a Boyd degree would be used as toilet paper in CA, unless you love San Bernardino County, which is Vegas without the gambling. I would expect to make between $60-$70K coming out, with a ceiling of $115-$120 by the end of your third year if you're at a big firm or somewhere between $80-$90K if you're not.
I have no particular sympathies to Boyd one way or another, but to be fair, with a few exceptions exceptions, a JD from any school outside the top 25 in a major market, is for the most part, useless for landing a big firm job. One of the many things that law school industry conveniently forgets to mention to incoming first years as they cash their 30k+ tuition checks.
Another is that most law school grads don't start making more than 5 figures.
Actually, you are more likely to get paid more in Vegas for similar work than you are in San Diego. If you like living in Vegas, it's pretty good as a place to be an attorney when you factor in pay and cost of living.
Two years ago, I did about 15-20 interviews with different firms in the city and received a number of offers. None of the firms were the ones listed on NALP, and the practice areas varied. To assist new grads, here's a breakdown of the offers by size and practice - 1) $60k offer from a PI solo practitioner with several associates, 2) $60k from a family law firm with two partners and no associates, 3) $65k offer from a general litigation firm with two partners and two associates, 4) $75k from an insurance defense firm with two partners and about four associates, 5) $75k from a plaintiffs’ CD firm with about 8-12 attorneys, 6) $75k from an insurance defense firm with about 20-30 attorneys, 7) $85k from a business litigation firm with about 8-12 attorneys, 8) $90k from a general litigation firm with about 40-50 attorneys, and 9) $90k from a regional general litigation firm with about 3 attorneys locally. Also, an insurance defense firm with about 10-12 attorneys said the salary would be in the sixties but never made an offer. Keep in mind, these offers were in 2008, so they may not reflect the current economy.
11:23 and 11:48 have hit it right on the head. At least that's been my experience. Not bad, considering the super-low cost of living compared to SF, DC, NY, LA, CH, etc.
Boyd grad, working in a major market, earning far more than a typical associate in a Vegas firm. Probably more than typical junior partners.
You absolutely can land a job like this with a degree from a school like Boyd, but it requires a few extras. Top grades, law review editorship, federal clerkship (appellate court is obviously better).
In my experience, firms see the clerkship, the class rank of 1 (or 2), and law review, and forgive that you attended a little-known state school in some far away locale. I participate in recruiting here and can tell you that school choice is discussed openly for candidates from pretty much any school outside the top 10 ("we understand he attended [state school] to be close to family, and his grades reflect high standards . . . ."). It's not Boyd, it's all second-tier schools.
I don't know - and haven't seen - reactions to third- or fourth-tier school applicants.
As a Boyd graduate your biggest handicap will be the legal writing program that killed-off any native writing ability you may have had.
Your best bet is to hop on westlaw or lexis and print various briefs from different jurisdiction. See what legal writing looks like. Learn how the good legal writer breaks down facts and analyzes the law, etc.
Good luck. Remember, if all else fails, you can become a defense troll at Alverson Taylor.
A degree from any accredited school is fine in any market if you pass the bar. You just need a degree (from any accredited school) to take the bar in any state, and in CA it doesn't even have to be an accredited school. Being near the top of your class and on law review is more important. It shows you can reason legally and write, and aren't just a good LSAT taker.
Who does being a lazy professor's cite-monkey demonstrate that you can reason well? For that matter, is there any relation whatsoever to the ability of someone to get on law review and their ability to provide excellent legal advice to a client?
9:26 here. "Who" should be "How." I've been rewriting a new associate's brief (who was on her law school's journal and yet can't write worth a tinker's dam) for so long, my fingers are playing tricks on my mind.
Having worked the California market many years ago before moving to Nevada, I think I can offer some insight about the value of a Boyd degree. The perception that a Boyd degree is worthless outside of Nevada simply is not true, although it's marketability does not travel as well as some might like. However this is true of most law schools outside the 1st tier.
What Boyd does have is the "home town" advantage. When I worked in California, most of my clients were adamant about demanding 1st tier schools. But USD grads always seemed welcomed in San Diego, Loyola in LA, USF in San Fransisco, etc. The only exceptions were the Orange County schools which have struggled for many years to get a better reputation.
There is also the question of what kind of firm you're looking at out of school. If you plan to enter a firm with high billing rate general commercial clients, then schools matter; less so for other practices. But I can state with certainty that in Las Vegas, the Boyd graduate is prized. Not only does it mean that those laws unique to Nevada are not completely alien, but that the candidate has at least some ties to the state, which can positively impact their future growth. And don't think that having experienced one of our summers isn't prized. I have clients who are wary of hiring out of staters from cold climates, lest their first July they panic and think they've moved to Dante's 8th circle. It's funny I know, but I'm serious. If you have two otherwise identical candidates, one from Phoenix and the other from Milwaukee, the Arizona applicant has the edge because you don't worry he bolt for home the first time he gets second degree burns opening his car.
I've seen alot of attorneys that are well estblished in the comunity from "good" schools and they'e dunb. Once you get ur first job ur on equal footing with the rest of us stupid bloggers
You weren't on law review. You do more than check cites. You are right that being on review is no guarantee of good writing, but it's a good indicator. You can always confirm or deny by looking at writing samples. Also, I listed GPA, and you didn't address that. GPA is the best indicator of being able to reason legally, and quickly. If you prize the ability to work with clients most of all, as you appear to, then school rank means absolutely nothing, not more.
I second what 1:35 said so eloquently. Once you've secured that first job, your career has less to do with the school you attended and more to do with your work performance and the connections you make.
It's not necessarily true that firms stop caring about your grades after you graduate. For example, Lewis and Roca asks you to submit a copy of your transcript when submitting a resume. Is it ridiculous after you've been practicing for three years? Yes, but I suppose if you don't have a reference in the firm who will attest to your legal capability, it's something they can use to weed out applicants.
Could you use anymore of an outlier situation to try and prop up that Boyd degree? We're not talking about the summa, EIC grad who clerked for Bybee or Rawlinson. We're talking about the average joe. Or hell, even someone in the top 1/3rd. Do you really think OMM is going to give them the time of day?
How many other attorneys, if any, did P&B take with them from BHFS? I have always thought BHFS did quality litigation work for the most part, even though P&B are pains in the ass, they do get it done most of the time. The other litigators there I have not been as impressed with as much...
To all the tools on this board who say they are better than Boyd grads: many of the most successful lawyers in Nevada have attended law schools less prestigious than Boyd. The simple fact is that going to an Ivy League school does not make you a good attorney, and you can be a great attorney even if you graduate from the shittiest law school in the country.
I'm not trying to prop up Boyd by suggesting that Boyd grads can all get big firm jobs in major markets. In response to all the comments about Boyd, I'm suggesting that it's not that Boyd is a bad school or has a particularly bad name, it's just that in many markets Boyd is indistinguishable from all the other law schools that aren't in the top 15.
For all such schools, it's not the degree, it's the extras that get you the job. And it doesn't really matter which second-tier school you attended. To many major firms in many major markets, all out-of-area second-tier schools look the same. I'd even throw in lower first-tier schools.
Trying to get a job in DC or NY is the same exercise whether you're from Pepperdine, Boyd, Baylor, or Notre Dame. You need to distinguish yourself in some additional ways because your school won't do it for you (with obvious exceptions, such as when the hiring partner is an alum of your school).
I've seen the summa, EIC, CoA clerk credentials help an Emory graduate get a job here. No doubt Emory has a much better reputation than Boyd, but it took that candidate the same ridiculous credentials to distinguish himself that the Boyd graduate needed. And he had to have an explanation for choosing Emory over better schools! Crazy but true. In the market where I work, Emory looks like all the other schools not in the top 15.
Boyd doesn't have a bad name. It's just treated like most out of area, second-tier schools.
I can summarize modern law school writing programs in three words, "form over substance." If the inane, reiterated over-beaten dead-horse writing of the LV bar I read is an indication, then I'm guessing everyone in LV went to Boyd? (referring to 12:19) I failed to realize just how bad it is until a few exceptionally well-drafted motions recently came into my life; I almost wept.
Personally, I do not believe law school (from top to bottom) teaches effective writing. When the classic rhetoricians were shown the door at our schools, so too did the ability to formulate truly great arguments. It's an art form, not a formulaic methodology with which strict adherence translates into excellence. It's persuasion - pure and simple; no different than selling perfume. My opinion, for what its worth, if want to learn to write well take a rhetoric class and a good non-compositional English course - if you can find one.
Happy Friday everyone!
I'm a Boyd student currently and have been reading a lot about the average salary of new attorneys. I want to know, what really is the average salary of a new attorney in Las Vegas? Assuming a reasonable recovery to the economy in 3 years.
ReplyDeleteWhat do readers here make that are 0-3 yrs out of law school? Big firm, small firm, medium firm?
$115,000 on average.
ReplyDeleteHah - I wouldn't bank on more than 6 figures. Sure - large firms do, but given the state of the economy, the growing oversupply of attorneys and the realization that new attorneys know very little, I would target the 70-90k range as a starting salary, and consider it a bonus if you get more.
ReplyDelete@9:51,
ReplyDeleteEither you meant 5 figures (as in, up to 99k), or I needed to study a hell of a lot more.
@9:01 - do yourself a favor, ignore starting salaries and do 2 or 3 years at a decent Insurance Defense shop (ask practing litigators which ones to avoid) to learn the ropes and then switch to plaintiff work.
ReplyDeleteEasiest path to a decent living if you're staying in this valley.
P.S. Do Boyd degrees travel?
A Boyd degree in a major legal market is fairly useless. Better to stay in Nevada with it - you've got a fighting chance here. In Washington DC, New York, Boston, Chicago, or San Francisco, instead of taking depositions, you'll be asking "paper or plastic?"
ReplyDeleteOn average, are we as lawyers in Las Vegas under or over-paid for our market? What do you guys/gals think? (Please answer objectively. Of course I think I, personally, should get paid more.)
ReplyDeleteAccording to NALP, salaries have gone down at most of the big/regional firms in town - who are typically the highest paying. If you can score 6 figures consider yourself lucky.
ReplyDeleteBy way of example, Ballard now lists 115 - they used to be over 130. Holland and Hart is at 110 - used to be 120. Snell is now 105 - used to be higher. Others have lowered as well, I'd be surprised if the non-NALP-listing local firms have gone up.
So, there are a few decent paying gigs out there, but spots are more competitive than ever with fewer firms hiring. As a first-year, I'd say average will be around 80, but what you do with your career from there is your deal.
I work in commercial litigation, but I agree with 10:13 AM as to the safest path to riches (assuming no massive tort reform comes along).
As a San Francisco attorney licensed in Nevada, I can say with conviction that a Boyd diploma is less useful than a Kleenex if you want to getting hired at a mid-sized to large firm. Asbestos work at $60K, maybe.
ReplyDeleteI recommend a second degree in Chiropractic.
ReplyDeleteI have worked in four legal markets in my career; San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego and Las Vegas. The San Diego and Vegas markets are comparable, which equates to about 60-75% of what you would make in SF or LA. In terms of job prospects Vegas is head and shoulders above the other three markets. Coming from a top tier school in CA, I can tell you that a Boyd degree would be used as toilet paper in CA, unless you love San Bernardino County, which is Vegas without the gambling. I would expect to make between $60-$70K coming out, with a ceiling of $115-$120 by the end of your third year if you're at a big firm or somewhere between $80-$90K if you're not.
ReplyDeleteI have no particular sympathies to Boyd one way or another, but to be fair, with a few exceptions exceptions, a JD from any school outside the top 25 in a major market, is for the most part, useless for landing a big firm job. One of the many things that law school industry conveniently forgets to mention to incoming first years as they cash their 30k+ tuition checks.
ReplyDeleteAnother is that most law school grads don't start making more than 5 figures.
Any others out there?
Actually, you are more likely to get paid more in Vegas for similar work than you are in San Diego. If you like living in Vegas, it's pretty good as a place to be an attorney when you factor in pay and cost of living.
ReplyDeleteTwo years ago, I did about 15-20 interviews with different firms in the city and received a number of offers. None of the firms were the ones listed on NALP, and the practice areas varied. To assist new grads, here's a breakdown of the offers by size and practice - 1) $60k offer from a PI solo practitioner with several associates, 2) $60k from a family law firm with two partners and no associates, 3) $65k offer from a general litigation firm with two partners and two associates, 4) $75k from an insurance defense firm with two partners and about four associates, 5) $75k from a plaintiffs’ CD firm with about 8-12 attorneys, 6) $75k from an insurance defense firm with about 20-30 attorneys, 7) $85k from a business litigation firm with about 8-12 attorneys, 8) $90k from a general litigation firm with about 40-50 attorneys, and 9) $90k from a regional general litigation firm with about 3 attorneys locally. Also, an insurance defense firm with about 10-12 attorneys said the salary would be in the sixties but never made an offer. Keep in mind, these offers were in 2008, so they may not reflect the current economy.
ReplyDeleteWhich one did you take?
ReplyDelete11:23 and 11:48 have hit it right on the head. At least that's been my experience. Not bad, considering the super-low cost of living compared to SF, DC, NY, LA, CH, etc.
ReplyDeleteBoyd grad, working in a major market, earning far more than a typical associate in a Vegas firm. Probably more than typical junior partners.
ReplyDeleteYou absolutely can land a job like this with a degree from a school like Boyd, but it requires a few extras. Top grades, law review editorship, federal clerkship (appellate court is obviously better).
In my experience, firms see the clerkship, the class rank of 1 (or 2), and law review, and forgive that you attended a little-known state school in some far away locale. I participate in recruiting here and can tell you that school choice is discussed openly for candidates from pretty much any school outside the top 10 ("we understand he attended [state school] to be close to family, and his grades reflect high standards . . . ."). It's not Boyd, it's all second-tier schools.
I don't know - and haven't seen - reactions to third- or fourth-tier school applicants.
As a Boyd graduate your biggest handicap will be the legal writing program that killed-off any native writing ability you may have had.
ReplyDeleteYour best bet is to hop on westlaw or lexis and print various briefs from different jurisdiction. See what legal writing looks like. Learn how the good legal writer breaks down facts and analyzes the law, etc.
Good luck. Remember, if all else fails, you can become a defense troll at Alverson Taylor.
What does ATMS pay 0-3 year?
ReplyDeleteInteresting article about ATMS: http://www.lvbusinesspress.com/articles/2010/04/26/news/iq_35452748.txt
ReplyDeleteYeah, ATMS doesn't lay attorneys off, they go running. Not to mention how their benefits look more and more anemic every year.
ReplyDelete12:00 p.m.
ReplyDeleteThanks Kfir Levy.
A degree from any accredited school is fine in any market if you pass the bar. You just need a degree (from any accredited school) to take the bar in any state, and in CA it doesn't even have to be an accredited school. Being near the top of your class and on law review is more important. It shows you can reason legally and write, and aren't just a good LSAT taker.
ReplyDelete@8:13,
ReplyDeleteWho does being a lazy professor's cite-monkey demonstrate that you can reason well? For that matter, is there any relation whatsoever to the ability of someone to get on law review and their ability to provide excellent legal advice to a client?
9:26 here. "Who" should be "How." I've been rewriting a new associate's brief (who was on her law school's journal and yet can't write worth a tinker's dam) for so long, my fingers are playing tricks on my mind.
ReplyDelete9:29 PM - spot on, mate.
ReplyDeleteHaving worked the California market many years ago before moving to Nevada, I think I can offer some insight about the value of a Boyd degree. The perception that a Boyd degree is worthless outside of Nevada simply is not true, although it's marketability does not travel as well as some might like. However this is true of most law schools outside the 1st tier.
ReplyDeleteWhat Boyd does have is the "home town" advantage. When I worked in California, most of my clients were adamant about demanding 1st tier schools. But USD grads always seemed welcomed in San Diego, Loyola in LA, USF in San Fransisco, etc. The only exceptions were the Orange County schools which have struggled for many years to get a better reputation.
There is also the question of what kind of firm you're looking at out of school. If you plan to enter a firm with high billing rate general commercial clients, then schools matter; less so for other practices. But I can state with certainty that in Las Vegas, the Boyd graduate is prized. Not only does it mean that those laws unique to Nevada are not completely alien, but that the candidate has at least some ties to the state, which can positively impact their future growth. And don't think that having experienced one of our summers isn't prized. I have clients who are wary of hiring out of staters from cold climates, lest their first July they panic and think they've moved to Dante's 8th circle. It's funny I know, but I'm serious. If you have two otherwise identical candidates, one from Phoenix and the other from Milwaukee, the Arizona applicant has the edge because you don't worry he bolt for home the first time he gets second degree burns opening his car.
@219
ReplyDeleteI heard that ATMS just bumped their 0-3 licesed associates to $22an hour AND pays for their CLE and Bar Dues.
I've seen alot of attorneys that are well estblished in the comunity from "good" schools and they'e dunb. Once you get ur first job ur on equal footing with the rest of us stupid bloggers
ReplyDelete@9:29
ReplyDeleteYou weren't on law review. You do more than check cites. You are right that being on review is no guarantee of good writing, but it's a good indicator. You can always confirm or deny by looking at writing samples. Also, I listed GPA, and you didn't address that. GPA is the best indicator of being able to reason legally, and quickly. If you prize the ability to work with clients most of all, as you appear to, then school rank means absolutely nothing, not more.
I second what 1:35 said so eloquently. Once you've secured that first job, your career has less to do with the school you attended and more to do with your work performance and the connections you make.
ReplyDelete@9:12
ReplyDeleteIt's not necessarily true that firms stop caring about your grades after you graduate. For example, Lewis and Roca asks you to submit a copy of your transcript when submitting a resume. Is it ridiculous after you've been practicing for three years? Yes, but I suppose if you don't have a reference in the firm who will attest to your legal capability, it's something they can use to weed out applicants.
any verdict in the Eglet case?
ReplyDelete@831 - it's true. i even demand transcripts before a first date - weed out the gene pool.
ReplyDeleteInteresting. Lewis and Roca has some real talent on staff, and some real f'ing idiots.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know where Bice and Pisanelli went?
ReplyDeleteBice and Pisanelli formed Pisanelli Bice PLLC and moved into the 3883 building at Howard Hughes.
ReplyDeleteToo bad they didn't go with the name Bice Pisanelli...I like law firm names that sound like people.
ReplyDelete12:00
ReplyDeleteCould you use anymore of an outlier situation to try and prop up that Boyd degree? We're not talking about the summa, EIC grad who clerked for Bybee or Rawlinson. We're talking about the average joe. Or hell, even someone in the top 1/3rd. Do you really think OMM is going to give them the time of day?
Reminds me of when someone sent me this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5S1NAMnYKM
How many other attorneys, if any, did P&B take with them from BHFS? I have always thought BHFS did quality litigation work for the most part, even though P&B are pains in the ass, they do get it done most of the time. The other litigators there I have not been as impressed with as much...
ReplyDeleteTo all the tools on this board who say they are better than Boyd grads: many of the most successful lawyers in Nevada have attended law schools less prestigious than Boyd. The simple fact is that going to an Ivy League school does not make you a good attorney, and you can be a great attorney even if you graduate from the shittiest law school in the country.
ReplyDelete5:46-
ReplyDeleteI'm not trying to prop up Boyd by suggesting that Boyd grads can all get big firm jobs in major markets. In response to all the comments about Boyd, I'm suggesting that it's not that Boyd is a bad school or has a particularly bad name, it's just that in many markets Boyd is indistinguishable from all the other law schools that aren't in the top 15.
For all such schools, it's not the degree, it's the extras that get you the job. And it doesn't really matter which second-tier school you attended. To many major firms in many major markets, all out-of-area second-tier schools look the same. I'd even throw in lower first-tier schools.
Trying to get a job in DC or NY is the same exercise whether you're from Pepperdine, Boyd, Baylor, or Notre Dame. You need to distinguish yourself in some additional ways because your school won't do it for you (with obvious exceptions, such as when the hiring partner is an alum of your school).
I've seen the summa, EIC, CoA clerk credentials help an Emory graduate get a job here. No doubt Emory has a much better reputation than Boyd, but it took that candidate the same ridiculous credentials to distinguish himself that the Boyd graduate needed. And he had to have an explanation for choosing Emory over better schools! Crazy but true. In the market where I work, Emory looks like all the other schools not in the top 15.
Boyd doesn't have a bad name. It's just treated like most out of area, second-tier schools.
-12:00
Looks like Pisanelli and Bice took their associates Jarrod Rickard and Debra Spinelli.
ReplyDeleteNotre Dame = 22
ReplyDeletePepperdine = 52
Baylor = 64
Boyd = 78
Emory = 22
ReplyDeleteAnyone practice in Nye County or had to work with Beckett?
ReplyDeleteSeems like he's in a bit of trouble.
I can summarize modern law school writing programs in three words, "form over substance." If the inane, reiterated over-beaten dead-horse writing of the LV bar I read is an indication, then I'm guessing everyone in LV went to Boyd? (referring to 12:19) I failed to realize just how bad it is until a few exceptionally well-drafted motions recently came into my life; I almost wept.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I do not believe law school (from top to bottom) teaches effective writing. When the classic rhetoricians were shown the door at our schools, so too did the ability to formulate truly great arguments. It's an art form, not a formulaic methodology with which strict adherence translates into excellence. It's persuasion - pure and simple; no different than selling perfume. My opinion, for what its worth, if want to learn to write well take a rhetoric class and a good non-compositional English course - if you can find one.