An interesting conversation in the comments caught our eye yesterday, and we wanted to see what you guys & gals thought. It started as follows:This is a bit off topic, but . . . A recruiter from Ballard Spahr has contacted most of the associates in my firm's litigation department regarding openings. We have also been contacted by local recruiters for positions at unnamed firms. I also understand that Gordon & Silver is actively recruiting.Then, our local Shark Pimp (and past WWL contributor), Jordan Ross, weighed in with his analysis:
We are a bit surprised - our litigation department has been busy but we are still hearing that the economy is making things tight.
Any thoughts on the expansion by these firms? Is the economy turning around? Are any other firms actively looking for laterals?
I think the best and most cautious way to describe the state of the legal economy in Las Vegas is that it has bottomed out. There are some definite signs of improvement; I'm currently looking for a Commercial Litigator, a Insurance Defense Litigator and a couple of IP attorneys, among others. By the way, the people in your firm were probably contacted by an outside recruiter; it's almost unheard of for an in house recruiter to solicit non-equity attorneys. Budgets are still very tight right now and any potential new hire has to pencil out well into the black, but yes, I think we are starting to see some improvement. For myself, this is shaping up to be an oddly lucrative year.
Let's do a little impromptu poll regarding our current legal job market. From where you currently-employed commenters sit at your various firms, do things seem to be looking up? Or, possibly, are we seeing the calm before a post-holiday storm?
(Knocking on wood as I type this) As an associate (still) practicing at a firm which has had lay offs, I can say that I feel more secure about my job now than I did last year at this time. I'm not sure that we're looking to hire, but we're pretty busy.
ReplyDeleteTwo more years to fall. This is just an uptick on the way down as firms throw more hours at ridiculous cases that could settle in 2 weeks of honest effort and realistic evaluation.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that settlement of a claim is against the interest of the defense firm that is cash starved.
A little off-topic, but I agree with 8:28. Defense firms have absolutely zero incentive to resolve cases in an efficient manner.
ReplyDeleteSmall criminal defense firm (2 attorneys) also doing some family law and a bit of PI. Our receipts have steadily fallen since since September. I've talked to several other small criminal shops; all are experiencing same drop.
ReplyDeleteHas anybody, besides me, heard the rumor that Rooker Rawlins is closing down, or at least told their associates to start looking for new jobs?
ReplyDeleteI know the work at my firm has slowed down. Unfortunately, it does not appear to be the annual slow down, but something a little more prolonged.
Busy as ever, and quite frankly, we'd be fine if another case didn't walk in the door for 4-5 months. But, I'm not complaining. I have a job, I'm getting a steady paycheck, and I'm happy.
ReplyDeleteI really can't tell you what's going on. But, from my observations, people who are already hurting financially are not going to be going out and hiring an attorney. It seems that family law and criminal defense are feeling the impact in this regard as the Courts (at least what I've been told) are seeing a lot more pro se/self-represented parties.
But, where people feel like they can make a buck for their inconvenience, that litigation seems to be as strong as ever. Personal injury cases and the like haven't seemed to slow down at all, at least from my vantage point. And, bankruptcy lawyers are very busy themselves.
Commercial litigation seems hit and miss. As companies were bracing for impact, litigation for relatively small amounts (under say $50k) were just being written off. Cheaper to take the write-off than hire an attorney. I think that conservative nature is still ringing true with most businesses, but as some start to be balancing out, legal fees are not so ominous.
I personally don't think we've hit bottom yet. I think we're going to see a second round of massive foreclosures both in the residential market but also the commercial real estate market. When that hits this community, and state, we're going to see round two of belt tightening in firms that get too optimistic in this temporary upswing.
Smart firms will only be hiring if they are truly busy with long term maintainable business. The rest will maintain their status quo for the time being.
Just my 2-cents.
And, to 8:28 and 8:44, as a defense attorney, actually, I've got a lot of incentive to settle claims - it's called acting in the best interest of my client. And, frankly, keeping my clients happy and able to keep their legal fees controlled in this market actually brings more business in than bleeding them to death.
In a two-state firm (CA and NV) that does insurance defense. The CA offices have been hiring/expanding throughout the recession. I'm the only attorney running their beach-head Vegas office. Files have steadily increased from a couple in February to fifteen or more right now.
ReplyDeleteBut I'm not holding my breath.
9:23 I wish you could get hired by the defendants I have. I have flat out denials on pretty straight forward claims, and when I have them completely cornered after discovery, I'm still only getting offers of 50%-100% of medical costs.
ReplyDeleteIt's pretty clear that there will be a second wave of defaults in Spring/Summer 2010 when the Option A grade loans adjust en masse.
- 8:28
10:04 is right on the money re defaults. I know 3 couples who are at the end of their fiscal tethers and have huge adjustments coming in the 1st 1/2 of 2010.
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't know too many people.
As an employer of many attorneys at a decently sized firm, I would recommend that you all work harder.
ReplyDeleteWe are sending out requests for resumes and looking to add attorneys & staff, so that we can fire the lazy ones after the holidays.
Sorry for the false alarm RE an upturning economy.
The problem: current staff and associates have grown even more complacent and are not feeling the effects of the economy, as is demonstrated by their refusal to work at appropriate levels.
So, we'll bring in people that really want a job.
Obviously I won't name names, but you can bet that, unless you are a bankruptcy firm, this is your firm's strategy...increase efficiency, profitability and quality of work. If getting rid of you and bringing in someone else accomplishes that goal, well, whooya!
Oh, @9:23, you are spot on.
It's hard out there for a pimp!!
How exactly does an inn-house recruitter look to hire an associate? Do they just look to raid another "tall building" firm's associate, or actually go with the reputation of a young associate they've seen/heard about?
ReplyDelete@9:23
ReplyDeleteI wish all defense attorneys felt the same as you do. Unfortunately, I have been having very similar experiences as 8:28, in that very straight forwarded cases, with absolute clear liability, are being unnecessarily dragged out, costing the carrier thousands of unnecessary dollars.
As an example, I had a deposition last week with a DEFENSE oriented expert who said, after the depo (in the presence of defense counsel), that we had a rock solid case-medically-and he was baffled that it had not settled yet.
Again, I applaud you, but there are plenty out there who do not share your same sentiments.
"It's hard out there for a pimp."-hands down the cheesiest thing I have heard/read all week. Thank you, LU.
-8:44
One of the problems I see is that the really qualified and top-performing associates have no incentive to stay in their firms, and there is not enough competitive bidding for their services.
ReplyDeletePartnerships are on the decline, and most small-mid sized firms had the scare of their life over the last two years and aren't going to dilute ownership or lower their draw any further to bring in new partners from their associate ranks.
Top-performing associates, (ie. > 115% of billable requirements, top 1-2 collectable generators) have no real incentive to work any harder than not to get fired. Salary contraction, less partnership benefits, and competition for the scraps of clients does not for high morale or productivity make.
Bottom?? Who knows, but until the billing, turnover, mentor, and development philosophies change at many of the firms in town, it doesn't matter whether there is hiring, because there will still be a glut of underqualified and overpaid attorneys in this town.
11:26 -- I am the OP regarding the Ballard Spahr calls. They contacted all associates in our litigation department with 2-3 years of experience; it was not based on reputation, ability or pedigree. They just go down the list. I am at a "tall building firm." The recruiter said he was from Boston -- I didn't ask for any other information, I am happy where I am.
ReplyDeleteI get cold calls and e-mails from NY/Boston/LA Recruiters all the time. From what I gather, they essentially surf Martindale to find associates to solicit. I always wondered if a partner or senior associate from another firm notice how effective an associate was and wanted to target them.
ReplyDelete12:01 PM - Just a word of caution on your comment "Top-performing associates ... have no real incentive to work any harder than not to get fired.". A very pointed comment from one of my clients just this autumn, and which I shared in my annual address at Boyd, was his disdain for "cruisers", the attorneys, who do a competent job, are never late, don't screw up, meet their billables - but never, ever, do anything more than they need to for the paycheck. When the crunch is on and there are no more sub-standard hanger-ons to let go, these are the ones who get the axe, regardless of seniority.
ReplyDeleteJordan,
ReplyDeleteWe've been waiting for you all day to comment on this thread.
Truer words have never been spoken.
Somewhere entitlement to high wages for little work seems to have taken over the thought process of the new generation. However, 12:01 PM, there are many that are willing to work harder than is required, those guys will be MY partners.
I don't think you guys have address 12:01's real point, though. I think his point is that in many, if not most, cases, even if you work your ass off, there is little to show for it. The odds of making partner are as slim as ever. Why would anybody work harder if they know there is no reward for it? To make the partners richer? Thanks, but no thanks.
ReplyDeleteDisdain for competent associates who never screw up, aren't late and make their billables but who never do anything more for the paycheck?
ReplyDeleteAss.
The scene in Office Space about how much flair is on Jennifer Aniston's suspenders comes to mind.
As a fairly lazy fellow who nonetheless regularly produces both outstanding results and yearly minimums, I am upset that I could be targeted for elimination in favor of some less talented but more driven fellow. What happened to the easy gravy days of 9-5 with a two-hour two-cocktail lunch in between?
ReplyDeleteTerrible. Might as well outsource my job to some 200+ IQ guy in India who will work for pennies.
3:04:
ReplyDeleteClassic, the flair example is perfect.
2:57
@2:57 PM
ReplyDeleteNo, we got the point. What you are missing in your understanding of WORK, is that you never KNOW what the future holds. If you are just a minimum effort worker, like 3:08, then you will be just that, minimally valuable. However, if things go well for the firm, an entity that you are helping to build, you will be rewarded, but not if you are a lazy dipshit.
As for "Why would anybody work harder if they know there is no reward for it? "
- That is just it, you don't KNOW. Why did you go to law school? Because you "believed" it would provide a better job, security, whatever. You didn't KNOW. So cut the crap of "I'll only work hard if you pay me a shitload of $$". I can pay ANYONE! I must see more if I'm gonna let you in on MY clients and help you with a future.
@3:08 PM
"What happened to the easy gravy days of 9-5 with a two-hour two-cocktail lunch in between?"
-those days are gone
I am beginning to believe that there are no intelligent & forward thinking young attorneys. It is all instant gratification for you guys. If you wanted to be a day laborer, you should have worked for the city.
PLEASE, someone prove me wrong.
LU:
ReplyDeleteFirst, why do you assume we are "young attorneys?" It hardly seems you have enough information to make that determination.
However, I agree that we really don't KNOW the future. So, all we have to go on is what we see-past is prologue. What we see is that more and more, even if you work your ass off and out perform 90% of your associates, there is still a great chance that you WILL NOT be made a partner. People need incentive.
As for "cutting the crap," that swings both ways. Old timers always act like "if you just work had, then you will make it." Sorry my friend, life doesn't always work out that way. It has nothing to do with instant gratification, and everything to do with the stick and carrot.
LU is an idiot.
ReplyDeleteAny remotely intelligent person would not work for LU or anyone like LU, they would work somewhere else or be out on their own, so it doesn't really matter what LU's opinion is regarding who LU would keep or cut.
LU is also a blatant liar, which I learned from the one time I bothered to read LU's blog.
I agree. If LU's blog is in any way indicative of his work product as an attorney, that is scary biz. But hey, at least he is "working hard." Keep up the good luck, LU. Before long you will have a record number of pieces of flair.
ReplyDeleteAs an employer, I can say that all of the attorneys who work for me and work hard will one day make partner, and all of the ones who do the minimum will always be associates and will be in line to be axed if we ever have a slowdown. This isn't rocket science, folks.
ReplyDeleteYo LU: illegitimi non carborundum! I appreciate your insight.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Option A mortgage defaults...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/businessweekoptionarm.jpg
-8:28
1st - you are young by your comments. We can all tell, well those of us that have practiced for a long time know...likely other smart young ones too. Typical comment from a young atty, not addressing the issues.
ReplyDeleteAs for the members of my Fan Club, it is likely that I sign some of your checks. That's the fun of this, given the IP addresses used, I've already confirmed it.
Shout out to LA!!
Gotta run!! Love you all.
LU's bio:
ReplyDeletePrick partner-in-name-only who steals associate time and pre-bills all the incoming work without even really looking at it before handing it off to associates.
Average attorney who certainly didn't start the firm and couldn't even bring in just a few clients. Just got hired as an associate, stayed in the same place long enough for inertia to set in, made the hours, didn't screw up and showed up on time. Became partner by virtue of being there a long time and older attorneys retiring.
Hypocrite since being given "partner" designation.
Be careful whose feet you step on, LU. Those feet may be attached to the ass you're kissing for a job later down the road.
LU is generally an ass clown with temporary moments of clarity (apparently when he takes his meds). I guess every blog needs an antagonistic prick to keep it juicy.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, there is no way he is anywhere near what he says he is, as no decent attorney I know has all the time he apparently does to do his own blog and spew all the drivel we see on this blog.
Real world Las Vegas bar exam:
ReplyDeleteA partner overseeing six associates tells them at the beginning of the year:
1) the minimum is 2000 hours;
2) you will not get a bonus for exceeding 2000 hours; and
3) At the end of the year the two associates who have billed the least will be fired.
Discuss.
5:16-I hope that's true (and have no reason to believe it is not). However, you have to understand that you/partners like you seem to be a minority in today's legal market. Especially at larger law firms.
ReplyDeleteLU:
"Shout out to LA"-the second cheesiest thing I have heard this week. You sound like a 20 year old club hopping 50 Cent clone. Maybe you can incorporate some of the following into your future posts:
-Bling bling
-Holla!
-Fo Shizzle my lawyer nizzles
-What's crack-a-lackin your honor?
-Drop it like's it hot
-Ya dig?!
For hell sakes, you sound like you're reading this stuff out of a "how to fit in with today's youth" manual. Maybe you have a teenage kid or something, but you remind me of the dad in Better Off Dead.
Just pay the kid his $2, and give us a break from the "work harder," "I sign your paychecks," "this generation feels entitled to something for nothing" holier than though garbage-it stinks.
This provides interesting thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI'm a relatively "young" lawyer, I worked for a big firm, worked my ass off and had ZERO hope of ever making partner.
Why do you ask? Because I was working for a "Big Law" not based in Nevada and realized that all the decision makers for the firm where not those who I had any contact with. My options were to somehow figure out how to completely kiss the asses of people several states away whom I never did any work or to ditch "Big Law." When I made the realization that I had a snowballs chance in hell of moving up the ladder with that firm, you better believe I didn't do any favors for the firm. Clients were one thing, but the firm, what incentive did I have?
I was able to find a landing spot where I have opportunity for legitimate advancement and I'm more than willing to continue working my ass off doing what it takes to get the job done well.
Assumption here run rampant whether your LU or one of the other individuals commenting. But, we all know what assuming does.
I'd like to think I'm a rather intelligent and forward thinking young lawyer. Then again, I'm not looking for instant gratification. I'm very content living in my small home, driving my 17 year old rig, and doing my job.
What I do want is for my law degree to eventually pay for itself. I'm not looking for huge bonuses (though, I'd never turn my nose up to anything), I'm not looking for a top tier salary.
Rather, I'm just looking for what I've found - a job that I like, people to work with whom I respect and treat me with respect, superiors who will acknowledge the good work, long hours and dedication I put forth, and the REAL opportunity to gain an ownership interest/stake in the firm - I realize that is when I will realize the long term financial benefit of my education and work ethic.
All I'm really asking for in addition is that the people, like LU, signing my pay check who went to law school when the total debt was $5,000-$10,000 understand that I took on the responsibility to obtain the degree and skills, which you're profiting from, and that my student loan debt SUCKS giant baboon balls. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I didn't have mommy or daddy pay for my education, and as a result, I likely have a better work ethic. Please just keep that in mind when you're bitch'n about the "young lawyers."
If that makes me a shit of an associate, guess I've been genuinely snowed.
Ho ho ho, as an employer I love the ones who work hard, expect little and love it. I encourage my kids to emulate Sponge Bob when young and become Mr. Krabs when older.
ReplyDeleteLU seems like a nice chap. Perhaps he will take a second to explain how a hard-working associate who produces more than expected will keep a marriage? Have a relationship with the kids? Keep a hobby?
Yeah, I can one day be a 10 times divorced "A+" attorney who is alienated from his kids. But why the fuck would I want to be???
Take "partnership" and stick up your butt. Twist it a couple of times for extra pleasure.
9:28 and 11:36:
ReplyDeleteWell said.
-2:57
I couldn't agree more with 9:28 and 11:36, and I wish to join 2:57/6:30's "well said."
ReplyDeleteAlso, the references to Office Space, Better Off Dead, and Sponge Bob were spot-on and refreshing. Thanks guys/girls.
P.S. LU is an ass clown.
LU: Krabs
ReplyDeleteMe: SpongeBob
8:45 PM - Isn't this the plot from Glengarry Glen Ross? One of the Shark Pimps favorite films by the way, along with Wall Street and Boiler Room.
ReplyDeleteVery grateful to be employed at a firm that seems to have all the work it can handle. I'm a paralegal making a decent salary and working my butt off supporting a fine attorney. I'm also worried sick about losing my home. Don't think the worst is behind us yet. Firms that depended on construction, mortgage lending, and all related businesses for a client base are toppling one after the other. I believe even more of them that have held out so far will either make drastic changes or fail completely by early next year. The only positive thing that may come out of this is for surviving firms to end up staffed with the very best of the formerly swollen southern nevada legal community. That would be a win for both future clients and the firms that make it through the economic crunch.
ReplyDeleteThere's a flip side to being an employer expecting extra dedication from plebes who want to be partners. There are plenty of owners in this town who are happy to milk you blind as they approach retirement age, and let the next managing partner worry about placating you after they take their cut and go fishing.
ReplyDeleteI took a job, with a stated expectation for work and a stated expectation for compensation. Occassionally I am pleasantly suprised by unexpected compensation. I try to pleasently suprise my employer by delivering extraordinary results, always, and by expending extraordinary effort occasionally.
BUT...my job is to deliver what was promised, at the promised wage. If my employer wants a particularly agressive go-getter, I can be that...for an additional 15% guaranteed in the short term , or a set of objective criteria (in writing, natch) by which I get a piece of the pie in the long term.
I've busted my ass for people before who want to kiss it, but not *pay it*. My dedication is extreme to people who display their appreciation with their wallets instead of CO2.
@ 9:10 PM
ReplyDeleteThanks for the lingo tips. It took me a second to write them down on paper, as I was changing my diaper, catching my drool and yelling at the kids.
@ 11:36 PM
QUESTION: "how a hard-working associate who produces more than expected will keep a marriage? Have a relationship with the kids? Keep a hobby?"
ANSWER: I don't know. I expect that if you dedicate yourself to your job, you'll make great $$. If you dedicate yourself to your family, you'll have a great family. Just don't ask me to pay you a shitload of money when you spend all your time with your family. That's the issue.
@Jordan Ross: GlenGarry GlenRoss, great movie. These turds should watch it. There is really only one thing that should have been said here, "Coffee is for closers!"
RE: 5:46 PM
If you want to know what most all employers want from an employee, read Anony 5:46 PM. This Anony has it right. I'll gladly pay you an extra 15% for "working your ass off." The issue is that most young attorneys want to flip it, they want $$ first, "work ass off" second...sorry, no worky dat vay.
As for my time...well, time comes with money & age. Sorry kids.
LU misses the point yet again, but that is expected with egomanical selfish partners who think they are "entitled" to large draws, stiffing their associates on hours, and claiming credit for anothers work. In five years in this town, I can count on my hand the amount of times a partner had an original thought, or could do something better than the assigned associate.
ReplyDeleteWhat we "young attorneys" are all tired of is this preception that partners think we are the ones with an entitlement problem. Even more ridiculous is the headhunter, read greedy shark making the compensation problem worse, jumping on board simply because some assmunch with the purse strings says that's the way it is at his firm.
I just want to be compensated for the 100 hours a week i dedicate to making the partners richer and more spoiled. Not necessarily monetary compensation, how about throwing a bone once in a while.
But no, while we sit under $125K in debt from lawschool, in a rented house (smarter than the average bear 4 years ago), and driving a 10 year old car, not going to newest night clubs in town; you complain about your million dollar house being upside down, about the new BMR being in the shop, or about wife #3 screwing the pool guy because your to fat to do it yourself. But don't you ever complain about the $350K+ in salary, incentives, perks, and other things you get for coming in at 830 and leaving at 6.
Want a better partner, work harder at motiviating and mentoring better associates instead of "work harder for more money."
dumbest thing I heard in this year...but thank you LU for the levity break.
@9:49 AM
ReplyDeleteYou work 100 hours a week? In any firm in the country, you would be partner after 5 years of that kind of work (unless you were meaning literally "5 years in town" which includes your 4 years at UNLV & you're only a 1-year associate).
100 hours a week...WOW...now that is going to ruin your marriage, or it will ensure you never find a woman. But if you want to work like that I'd love to bring you on board for a handsome salary & big bonuses.
Went to a real law school, unlike the lackys at Boyd.
ReplyDeleteI am up for partnership, but it is a serious economic dent to buy into a minute share of a law firm to get less than a 10% salary increase.
I should be getting that salary increase without the buy in since I was 118% of billables and top revenue collecting associate in the office.
My point is that the old ways of partnership and heirarchy aren't going to cut it in the new world.
This a late to the game post - I talked to a partner at Ballard who said they have not retained a recruiter and are not paying recruiting fees. If you are interested, apply directly and save yourself the disappointment of getting rejected b/c the firm is unwilling to pay $30k to a recruiter for answering Ballard's ad for you.
ReplyDeleteThe only recruiter firm that I've heard is worth its salt is Major Lindsay... though Jordan Ross seems to be a pretty straight shooter from his posts on this site, though it sounds like he is more of a partner level guy.