For all the Miley lovers, she has nothing on this Louisville judge: http://www.voice-tribune.com/editorfiles/images/best_dressed_09/bd_nominees/16-king.jpg
@9:39 Good find. Wow, Miley really has nothing on her in the looks and controversy departments. Google Judge Katie King and you'll find that someone called 911 on her for breaking into her ex-boyfriend's house and she was sleeping with some soap star's fiance. Miley has to step it up.
I'm a 3rd year associate at a large firm - what should I be making? (assume I'm good at my job) What would I be making at a small firm or in government?
Are salaries artificially depressed for associates right now? Are firms still pretending to suffer under the economy? Or are they really barely scraping by?
I'm a 3rd year at a largish firm, I make $110. How much do you make? I think some firms may have overreacted to the financial crisis - but I'm not sure that we're out of the woods yet.
You can't help but wonder though, what the firm's financial status is. They've continued to raise my hourly rate every year, without a proportionate raise (or any raise at all, sometimes). I'm glad to have my job; I like my firm; I'm well paid. But I do notice that I bill more than $400k a year in fees and am paid about a quarter of that amount. I'm not complaining because it's a symbiotic relationship (the partners have clients and no time; I have the opposite), but I do wonder how well they are or aren't doing - and also why there isn't a tad more generosity.
Artificially depressed? Are you kidding? They've been artificially inflated for the last decade. If you haven't noticed, you didn't really start adding any value to your firm until sometime in your second year. Do you realize how many hours partners wrote off for your time in the first year+? Unless you are the super star of all associates, or your firm is unscrupulous, the number is pretty high.
A 3rd year associate could be all of 28 and $110k is a good salary for someone of that age. Don't come back at me with how much law school debt you have. It's not the firm's, actually the client's, fault that you spent some outrageous sum to obtain a law degree. That was your choice to take on debt.
As for the initial question, $100k-$110k sounds about right for a 3rd year. DA's office would probably pay in the $70s/80s for same year and AG's would be $60s.
Small firm? Depends on practice area. Small corporate firm like Bailey Kennedy or Rice Sibley, about the same with bigger bonuses.
Small firm doing insurance defense or whatever else those small firms do? $70s/80s.
When I was a third year associate at an insurance defense shop, I made $80k with a discretionary bonus structure that was based on post-cut billables (minimum 3% of salary). I wish I could have gotten $110k.
Like I said, I'm most definitely not complaining about my salary. Most of your comments are well taken.
However, after a clerkship and some other experience, my work product was decent even my first year and my firm wrote off only about 10% of my time. So they still made more than $300k off me, and paid me about 100k.
The highest paying firms in this town have 3rd years over $130K, but they're primarily small local offices of national firms. Morris Peterson doesn't start high, but their raises are reportedly pretty substantial. I think their senior associates are paid as well as anyone in town.
It's a ridiculously tired argument that first years aren't profitable. Of course they are! Even summer clerks are profitable. Even at $150/hr (low for a firm that pays its associates over $100K), an associate who bills 1850 hours (an average requirement in LV) and has 25% written off (an insanely inflated number) would still generate $208K in revenue. Perhaps a first year isn't as profitable as more experienced lawyers, but they are ATM's from day one for partners.
As long as you are working for someone else, you will only eek out a living even at $110K per year. What is your take home? Considerably less than $110K. What can you write off? Probably close to nothing. $110k for a 3rd year - that's good on paper, not good in reality.
Plus you continue to be a chump for a higher-up. I've worked for myself before and am again and will never work for anyone ever again.
Autonomy, discretion in negotiating fees with clients and working when I want are unbeatable and yes, income is greater than $110k per year. Ownership is the key to success; working for the man generates income for the man and the associate gets a check and works and works and works so big daddy or mommy can say good little boy or girl or bad little boy or girl. Thanks I'll pass on being a chump for someone else.
Working for the man means never having to worry about being haled into court to defend against a hostile work environment suit when one of your bad little boys and bad little girls start being bad together.
Agree with 6:44. Don't have to deal with clients bitching about every bill and then trying to get them to pay after half of the bill has already been written off. Or suing them for it. Or dealing with fee disputes before the bar. Or stupid employee squabbles and drama. Or defending malpractice claims. Also, I realize I don't know everything right out of law school and appreciate the opportunity to learn from the excellent, experienced attorney at my firm. Great for those who prefer working for themselves-I'm happy for you, but don't be arrogant enough to presume that everyone who has different career motivations and desires than you is a "chump."
$400K revenue on a $110K salary (if it is actually collected) is not ripping you or the firm off. Given size of your firm, your overall overhead is probably somewhere between $150-$175K/lawyer, plus the wage burden (payroll taxes, health insurance, other employee benefits, etc.) is probably in the 30%-40% range, so once they pay you and pay the overhead, they aren't taking a whole lot extra home on your account.
Luckily for all of us "Employers", there are plenty of chumps with legal talent and no balls. If it costs me 150k to make 350k, even with collection headaches and liability, I'm money ahead and sippin associate paid for mai tai's in St. John.
But I'll be sippin on your back and the back of the other chumps with no testicular fortitude to get it done. Its called entrepenuerialism, and its not for the weak.
BTW, the mai tai was a metaphor for my reaping the benefits of your blood, sweat & overnighters.
Try again. My bar number is 4 digits, before there was such a thing as a February Bar Exam and pre-Y2K. The lease payment on my car is more than your student loan payment is gonna be after you use up for 5 year deferment.
Call it fantasy time if you want, but my student loans are a thing of the past and my daughters graduation trip to St. John next month was paid for by my associates' 1st Qtr billings.
I'd rather be a little fish in a GOOD big pond than the big fish in a shitty pond like 4:34's probably is. Newsflash - not everyone is a moneygrubbing egomaniac - I'm more interested in being a goood attorney. You sound like you have a micro-penis. I actually don't have to work. I do because I like the firm because the people aren't like you.
Its called using absurdity to demonstrate the absurd. The posts by attorneys that don't want the "hassles" of running a firm or making rain and being satisfied with being a good attorney (to me) are ridiculous and apparently satisfied with being "employed".
By definition, you won't likely be a "good attorney". After 10-12 years of practice, if you haven't made partner or started your own shop, you are destined for mediocrity and aren't a "good attorney".
Additionally, we all know the good attorneys that will NEVER make partner because they can't make rain.
My point (though admittedly made obnoxiously) was that to be truly successful in this market, you have to be a boss, partner or have your name on the door.
How else can you celebrate the true successes in life. Like my daughters graduation. Instead of sweating my billables for the month, or scheduling a paid vacation and making up my billables before or after, I can leave my practice in the trusted and capable hands of my associates. I can enjoy this time with my wife of 20 years and my oldest kid for a week on the beach without a single worry.
I can't respect someone who is satisfied with billing hours in a fully miserable profession for someone else forever.
Further, I only hire motivated attorneys and pay them based not on billables alone, but collections and bringing in their own business.
Truthfully, as an entrepeneur, I rejoice when an an associate leaves after a few years to start their own firm. Its happened to me twice and its a great feeling and I have made a friend for life.
My comments about fortitude and gut and balls are still no less true.
Do it or get the hell out of the way while I do it.
9:10 - So are you saying your employees are chumps because they work for you? I'm sure your attitude shows to your employees and they despise you for it.
I have not been practicing long enough to be up for partner (or, as far as I am concerned, qualified/competent to start my own firm). I know I am not a good attorney yet, but by working for others who are, I expect to learn enough to be one in the not too distant future.
I'm always glad to hear when other attorneys are doing well so I am glad to hear you are pleased with your situation. I can always change my mind and direction later if I decide to but for now I am perfectly happy not being a blowhard who makes judgmental pronouncements about other people's choices because they don't happen to have the same views as me.
@9:08 - You arrogant, useless piece of garbage. Go drive your fancy pants car and sip drinks on some island. Insult the chumps that make it all possible. Only the equally vapid will revel in your admitted incompetence. You're an embarassment. GTFO this blog.
I always have to stifle a snicker when I see those turds sitting there in the lobby at my firm brandishing bravado...too much product in the hair, wearing pinstripes that are just the slightest bit inappropriately leaning towards zootsuit, as if to say "I don't work for the MAN."
9:00 PM - Not bad. I just wish you could say it in a less confrontational way. Not everyone was meant to be a leader. Some are born to serve. We should not belittle them.
GC Here: 20+ years, $250,000 + car/benefits/expense. Not ALL one could do I suppose, but enough for me. Home weekends and evenings. Vacations when I want/need up to max weeks per year that I would never take. I hate to see the new associates sweat the money and hours all the while buying house/car/arm candy for the illusion. Don't forget to LIVE on your way up because you might not like the air when you reach the top. Law is only a profession, not a life. Enjoy but work hard and be proud of what you do in and out of the office. Sorry so sappy but, been there, done that. Enjoy and quit being so shitty to each other! It takes all kinds and it's pretty damn boring when everyone agrees.
Happy Friday everyone!
Has Gage been sentenced? Awand?
ReplyDeleteI don't know 8:13. Why don't you get off your fat lazy ass and go look it up yourself.
ReplyDelete^^ post of the day ^^
ReplyDelete@ 8:27
ReplyDeleteFat AND lazy ass? Wow, your 3 day weekend must be off to a rosy start with that attitude.
Lol.
Hioooooooooooooooooh! 8:13 just got served! Great start to a Friday.
ReplyDeleteYeah, we might as well shut it down after 8:27 - not gonna top that.
ReplyDeleteFor all the Miley lovers, she has nothing on this Louisville judge: http://www.voice-tribune.com/editorfiles/images/best_dressed_09/bd_nominees/16-king.jpg
ReplyDelete@8:13 I love you. Please impregnate me.
ReplyDeleteDuh...8:27 I meant...don't reject me just 'cause I'm fucking retarded. The children might get your brain.
ReplyDeleteOk -- let's start something else...
ReplyDeleteBest Judges & why they're good -- 25 words or less...
Federal Ct.
District Ct.
Justice Ct.
@9:39 Good find. Wow, Miley really has nothing on her in the looks and controversy departments. Google Judge Katie King and you'll find that someone called 911 on her for breaking into her ex-boyfriend's house and she was sleeping with some soap star's fiance. Miley has to step it up.
ReplyDeleteLet's talk money:
ReplyDeleteI'm a 3rd year associate at a large firm - what should I be making? (assume I'm good at my job) What would I be making at a small firm or in government?
Are salaries artificially depressed for associates right now? Are firms still pretending to suffer under the economy? Or are they really barely scraping by?
Anon 9:39:
ReplyDeleteI love the way the sunlight glints off the edge of her breast implant in that photo.
10:21 AM
ReplyDeleteI'm a 3rd year at a largish firm, I make $110. How much do you make? I think some firms may have overreacted to the financial crisis - but I'm not sure that we're out of the woods yet.
10:39
ReplyDelete$110k too.
You can't help but wonder though, what the firm's financial status is. They've continued to raise my hourly rate every year, without a proportionate raise (or any raise at all, sometimes). I'm glad to have my job; I like my firm; I'm well paid. But I do notice that I bill more than $400k a year in fees and am paid about a quarter of that amount. I'm not complaining because it's a symbiotic relationship (the partners have clients and no time; I have the opposite), but I do wonder how well they are or aren't doing - and also why there isn't a tad more generosity.
@ 10:03 Katie King for all three.
ReplyDeleteArtificially depressed? Are you kidding? They've been artificially inflated for the last decade. If you haven't noticed, you didn't really start adding any value to your firm until sometime in your second year. Do you realize how many hours partners wrote off for your time in the first year+? Unless you are the super star of all associates, or your firm is unscrupulous, the number is pretty high.
ReplyDeleteA 3rd year associate could be all of 28 and $110k is a good salary for someone of that age. Don't come back at me with how much law school debt you have. It's not the firm's, actually the client's, fault that you spent some outrageous sum to obtain a law degree. That was your choice to take on debt.
As for the initial question, $100k-$110k sounds about right for a 3rd year. DA's office would probably pay in the $70s/80s for same year and AG's would be $60s.
Small firm? Depends on practice area. Small corporate firm like Bailey Kennedy or Rice Sibley, about the same with bigger bonuses.
Small firm doing insurance defense or whatever else those small firms do? $70s/80s.
What firms are hiring summers?
ReplyDeleteAny GC's care to comment on salary?
ReplyDeleteWhen I was a third year associate at an insurance defense shop, I made $80k with a discretionary bonus structure that was based on post-cut billables (minimum 3% of salary). I wish I could have gotten $110k.
ReplyDelete"Whatchu' talkin bout Willis?"
ReplyDeleteGary Coleman
(1968-2010)
11:40 AM
ReplyDeleteLike I said, I'm most definitely not complaining about my salary. Most of your comments are well taken.
However, after a clerkship and some other experience, my work product was decent even my first year and my firm wrote off only about 10% of my time. So they still made more than $300k off me, and paid me about 100k.
The highest paying firms in this town have 3rd years over $130K, but they're primarily small local offices of national firms. Morris Peterson doesn't start high, but their raises are reportedly pretty substantial. I think their senior associates are paid as well as anyone in town.
ReplyDeleteAs a rule of thumb, firms want their associates to bill 3x their salary.
ReplyDeleteSo, you bill $300k, they pay you $100k, the rest goes to keeping the lights on, paying your secretary, other overhead, and the partners bonuses.
Want to make $110k? Bill $330k
Want to bill $250k? You'll make $83k
It's a ridiculously tired argument that first years aren't profitable. Of course they are! Even summer clerks are profitable. Even at $150/hr (low for a firm that pays its associates over $100K), an associate who bills 1850 hours (an average requirement in LV) and has 25% written off (an insanely inflated number) would still generate $208K in revenue. Perhaps a first year isn't as profitable as more experienced lawyers, but they are ATM's from day one for partners.
ReplyDelete9:39 Thank you for making my day!
ReplyDelete@ 9:39am: In the words of Al Bundy, "Hopping hooters on a popsicle stick!"
ReplyDelete10:50 AM I want to hire you. I will pay 110,000 plus 10% of billed and collected.
ReplyDeleteAs long as you are working for someone else, you will only eek out a living even at $110K per year. What is your take home? Considerably less than $110K. What can you write off? Probably close to nothing.
ReplyDelete$110k for a 3rd year - that's good on paper, not good in reality.
Plus you continue to be a chump for a higher-up. I've worked for myself before and am again and will never work for anyone ever again.
Autonomy, discretion in negotiating fees with clients and working when I want are unbeatable and yes, income is greater than $110k per year. Ownership is the key to success; working for the man generates income for the man and the associate gets a check and works and works and works so big daddy or mommy can say good little boy or girl or bad little boy or girl. Thanks I'll pass on being a chump for someone else.
@4:26,
ReplyDeleteWorking for the man means never having to worry about being haled into court to defend against a hostile work environment suit when one of your bad little boys and bad little girls start being bad together.
Law clerks & paralegals, if they are good ones, are profitable from day one
ReplyDeleteAgree with 6:44. Don't have to deal with clients bitching about every bill and then trying to get them to pay after half of the bill has already been written off. Or suing them for it. Or dealing with fee disputes before the bar. Or stupid employee squabbles and drama. Or defending malpractice claims. Also, I realize I don't know everything right out of law school and appreciate the opportunity to learn from the excellent, experienced attorney at my firm. Great for those who prefer working for themselves-I'm happy for you, but don't be arrogant enough to presume that everyone who has different career motivations and desires than you is a "chump."
ReplyDelete@10:39
ReplyDelete$400K revenue on a $110K salary (if it is actually collected) is not ripping you or the firm off. Given size of your firm, your overall overhead is probably somewhere between $150-$175K/lawyer, plus the wage burden (payroll taxes, health insurance, other employee benefits, etc.) is probably in the 30%-40% range, so once they pay you and pay the overhead, they aren't taking a whole lot extra home on your account.
1019pm IS a chump.
ReplyDeleteLuckily for all of us "Employers", there are plenty of chumps with legal talent and no balls. If it costs me 150k to make 350k, even with collection headaches and liability, I'm money ahead and sippin associate paid for mai tai's in St. John.
Thanks SUCKERS !
The only chump here is the mai tai sipper. Pretty crappy employer if all you can do is sip mai tais on some lame island.
ReplyDeleteTHANKS 1202!
ReplyDeleteBut I'll be sippin on your back and the back of the other chumps with no testicular fortitude to get it done. Its called entrepenuerialism, and its not for the weak.
BTW, the mai tai was a metaphor for my reaping the benefits of your blood, sweat & overnighters.
Sincerely,
YOUR BOSS (910am)
9:10/1:01,
ReplyDeleteFantasy time is over. Get back to studying for the bar.
910/101 Here.
ReplyDeleteTry again. My bar number is 4 digits, before there was such a thing as a February Bar Exam and pre-Y2K. The lease payment on my car is more than your student loan payment is gonna be after you use up for 5 year deferment.
Call it fantasy time if you want, but my student loans are a thing of the past and my daughters graduation trip to St. John next month was paid for by my associates' 1st Qtr billings.
If only you had a spine, you could do it too.
Mr. 4 digit bar number, you can't afford to buy a car?
ReplyDeleteP.S. - Thanks for getting people going; I just love a good cat fight.
P.S.S. - Did you and your boyfriend adopt?
4:34 - pretty creepy for an old codger like you to be lurking around a blog like this.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather be a little fish in a GOOD big pond than the big fish in a shitty pond like 4:34's probably is. Newsflash - not everyone is a moneygrubbing egomaniac - I'm more interested in being a goood attorney. You sound like you have a micro-penis. I actually don't have to work. I do because I like the firm because the people aren't like you.
ReplyDelete910/101 here again.
ReplyDeleteLet me spell it out.
Its called using absurdity to demonstrate the absurd. The posts by attorneys that don't want the "hassles" of running a firm or making rain and being satisfied with being a good attorney (to me) are ridiculous and apparently satisfied with being "employed".
By definition, you won't likely be a "good attorney". After 10-12 years of practice, if you haven't made partner or started your own shop, you are destined for mediocrity and aren't a "good attorney".
Additionally, we all know the good attorneys that will NEVER make partner because they can't make rain.
My point (though admittedly made obnoxiously) was that to be truly successful in this market, you have to be a boss, partner or have your name on the door.
How else can you celebrate the true successes in life. Like my daughters graduation. Instead of sweating my billables for the month, or scheduling a paid vacation and making up my billables before or after, I can leave my practice in the trusted and capable hands of my associates. I can enjoy this time with my wife of 20 years and my oldest kid for a week on the beach without a single worry.
I can't respect someone who is satisfied with billing hours in a fully miserable profession for someone else forever.
Further, I only hire motivated attorneys and pay them based not on billables alone, but collections and bringing in their own business.
Truthfully, as an entrepeneur, I rejoice when an an associate leaves after a few years to start their own firm. Its happened to me twice and its a great feeling and I have made a friend for life.
My comments about fortitude and gut and balls are still no less true.
Do it or get the hell out of the way while I do it.
One final point. Anyone that BUYS a new 750Li (or the equivelant, depending on my mood) every 2 years has more money than good sense.
ReplyDeleteLeasing for this car suits me.
But I paid cash for my kids' cars, if that makes you feel better.
How old is your daughter? Does she have a nice rack?
ReplyDelete@9:12,
ReplyDeleteIt should be. He paid cash for it. On the other hand, he's only leasing his wife's.
^Can't stop laughing. You rock.^
ReplyDelete9:10 - So are you saying your employees are chumps because they work for you? I'm sure your attitude shows to your employees and they despise you for it.
ReplyDeleteI have not been practicing long enough to be up for partner (or, as far as I am concerned, qualified/competent to start my own firm). I know I am not a good attorney yet, but by working for others who are, I expect to learn enough to be one in the not too distant future.
I'm always glad to hear when other attorneys are doing well so I am glad to hear you are pleased with your situation. I can always change my mind and direction later if I decide to but for now I am perfectly happy not being a blowhard who makes judgmental pronouncements about other people's choices because they don't happen to have the same views as me.
@9:08 - You arrogant, useless piece of garbage. Go drive your fancy pants car and sip drinks on some island. Insult the chumps that make it all possible. Only the equally vapid will revel in your admitted incompetence. You're an embarassment. GTFO this blog.
ReplyDeleteI always have to stifle a snicker when I see those turds sitting there in the lobby at my firm brandishing bravado...too much product in the hair, wearing pinstripes that are just the slightest bit inappropriately leaning towards zootsuit, as if to say "I don't work for the MAN."
ReplyDelete9:00 PM - Not bad. I just wish you could say it in a less confrontational way. Not everyone was meant to be a leader. Some are born to serve. We should not belittle them.
ReplyDeleteThis thread is still going? Nothing better to do on Memorial Day than have an internet pissing contest, huh people?
ReplyDelete3:19 PM - I'd tell you to blow me, but I suspect that'd give you too much pleasure. So piss off, piss ant.
ReplyDeleteGC Here: 20+ years, $250,000 + car/benefits/expense. Not ALL one could do I suppose, but enough for me. Home weekends and evenings. Vacations when I want/need up to max weeks per year that I would never take. I hate to see the new associates sweat the money and hours all the while buying house/car/arm candy for the illusion. Don't forget to LIVE on your way up because you might not like the air when you reach the top. Law is only a profession, not a life. Enjoy but work hard and be proud of what you do in and out of the office. Sorry so sappy but, been there, done that. Enjoy and quit being so shitty to each other! It takes all kinds and it's pretty damn boring when everyone agrees.
ReplyDelete