A helpful tipster sent us this interesting story from CNS. It may not be Nevada based, but it does involve the 9th Circuit ... and we found it amusing. Our ball, our rules.
Apparently, a group of out-of-state "attorneys" are suing California courts and the 9th Circuit judicial council for ... gasp ... requiring that attorneys pass something called a "bar exam" before practicing law. From CNS:
[Plaintiffs] call the requirement that attorneys practicing in California pass the state Bar exam "discriminatory" and "outdated." The class compares the rules to the situation when "in the 1890s, Homer Plessy, who was 1/8th black, was barred from riding in a 'Whites only' train car by Louisiana State law."Wait ... Plessy? These people just proved why they should not be allowed to practice law.
However, the suit isn't all batshit crazy; plaintiffs actually make some sense -- while managing to completely miss the point of a bar exam:
The class claims that the state Bar exam is not a reliable device for measuring an attorney's level of expertise: "There is no cause-and-effect nexus whatsoever between practice in the U.S. District Courts and this punitive licensing test," the class claims.
Wait ... the bar has nothing to do with the practice of law? Get out of here! Next you're going to tell us that the LSAT has nothing to do with law school ... or that law school has nothing to do with passing the bar. Crazies.
The plaintiffs want the 9th Circuit's local general admission rules scrapped, supposedly in favor of an admission-by-motion system. Good luck guys.
(Courthouse News Service; Thanks Tipster!)
At least Boyd grads could then practice in the Ninth Circuit
ReplyDeleteThey would have to learn how to spell Motion and then file electronically.
ReplyDeleteOf course, though, they would only have to learn how to spell Appellant
ReplyDeletei'd give it to them. why make each state's bar so different/difficult? you'd think nv and ca are tough enough to see that the exams are (form what i hear) fairly similar. why not do a double bar at the same time - 80% the same and 10% for each state?
ReplyDeleteSeriously, can you image praticing in a State without a bar exam? Look at the crazies we get with the bar exam - Elizabeth Halverson, James Lee, Troy Fox, Ben Childs, and the list goes on.
ReplyDeleteNaw, keep the bar exam. It may not keep out all the crazies, but it will stop a few from practicing.
I think it is ridiculous that a Multistate Bar Examination (MBE) score doesn't transfer to other states. There is no valid justification for requiring you to retake a multiple guess test which is just based on generic law, applicable to "multiple" states.
ReplyDeleteOnce you've taken the MBE you should be able to rely on that score for other states and then just take the essay. Somebody besides me do something about it.
Thanks in advance.
9:36 - You're retarded, or a Boyd grad, or both. You can use your MBE, if it is high enough, to waive into a number of states - Michigan is one, D.C. is another(I know it's not a state). Additionally, in CA and a number of other states, if you have practiced for more than 5 years (not Candelaria's version of 5 years) in one state, you can waive the MBE and just take the essay and performance portion of the bar exam.
ReplyDeleteVery nice Candelaria reference, 9:51. I, like many I'm sure, am strangely intrigued by her. I don't think the last chapter of her Vegas saga has yet been written. No, she will be around to entertain and intrigue us for years to come. Vegas characters like Amber frequently ratchet up the craziness before finally flaming out. The Supreme Court appeal foreshadows greater antics by her in the future. I can hardly wait.
ReplyDeleteWhere will Amber go to write her story? The bench? City Council? Clark County Commission? County Clerk? Legislature?
@9:51,
ReplyDeleteApparently, the term "reciprocity" means nothing to you. If you take the MBE in Nevada, you can't get a waiver in Michigan, because Michigan requires that the state you took the MBE in accept transfer scores from MBE exams administered in Michigan. Nevada doesn't, so experience is the only way to go.
I'm just grateful that my name wasn't included in the list of crazies in 9:19's post.
ReplyDeleteWell, the LSAT really doesn't have anything to do with law school, it's just a way to weed through all the candidates. As for the bar exam, I say they make it even harder since there are way too many lawyer factories (and I already have my licenses to practice in Nevada and California).
ReplyDelete@10:40 a.m.
ReplyDeleteActually, I'm a little disappointed that mine was omitted. Maybe one day I'll achieve Halverson-Miley-Candelaria status.
@10:42
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I'm licensed in 3 jurisdictions, one with universal reciprocity (well, except NV & CA), which means if I want to go anywhere else I'm free to do so with they payment of $$, so let's definitely make the exam more difficult - and perhaps legitimately assess the ability of an individual to effectively do the job.
I realize that to ratchet up the standards would never happen, the $$ train of incompetent and marginally competent people paying for the lavish free trips of our bar to lovely and exotic places would be diminished.
Is it pathetic that I can think of a few names of non-ABA law school grads in California that are likely the class representatives? And when thinking of those individuals, I shudder to think of the implications of them actually being given the ability to practice. Makes Halverson look like a legal genius and a golden child, so not good.
How did we get off the subject of Candelaria?
ReplyDelete@ 9:51- You're the kind of douche bag attorney I feel like punching in the face everyday I walk past starbucks. You must feel like a f*cking fool after you're number one example doesn't really apply. Yes, some states allow you to transfer scores but not all and a lot put restrictions on the ability to transfer scores. I think the point 9:36 was trying to make is that they should be freely transferable to all states.
ReplyDeleteY'all might read the complaint. What they are complaining about is the USDC's Local Rules on admission which (in CA as here in NV) preclude admission by a state resident unless he/she is also a member of that particular state bar. And, a bunch of the plaintiffs have practices where they never appear in state court.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure they are correct, and the complaint is overly dramatic, but there is a legitimate issue here.
do you all feel the angst in this room? I love it! Who says that lawyers have to warm and cuddly?
ReplyDeletePersonally, as long as you get unlimited chances to take the bar exam, the odds are you will pass it. There should be a twice-take rule.
Sorry, I don't want folks that failed their med boards 4 or 5 times operating on me. Shouldn't we police ourselves to keep multiple failures, sorry failers, from causing further reputation damages and harm to clients?
all the 5 time taker PI attorneys may now chime in. You know who you are.
@12:12 What about the 5 time taker judges? Where else can you have judges that failed the bar exam? I love Nevada.
ReplyDelete@12:12 - Right on the money. If you can't pass the bar on your first try you are either too stupid or too lazy to put in the required effort studying. Either way, you made a mistake going to law school. On the upside, lazy PI attorneys save my clients a bunch of $$ because they don't work up their cases.
ReplyDeleteWhere does this arrogance of being a first time bar passer come from. Do you think it really makes you any smarter than anyone else? For the record, I am a first time bar passer and have worked with people who believe they are high and mighty because they passed on the first try. Needless to say, many with this arrogance have no common sense, have no people skills and just memorized the rules enough to get by and pass.
ReplyDeleteFor me, the bar exam is like the driving test. It's not like anyone with a basic idea of how to drive can't pass the driving test. So for most of us, it's a minor nuisance that doesn't really show much.
ReplyDeleteBut for those for whom the driving test is an actual impediment -- well, let's just say that I'm very, very glad that they're not licensed to drive.
1:27
ReplyDeleteThere is no arrogance among people who passed the bar on their first try. Instead, there is a feeling that people who didn't pass on the first try have somethng seriusly wrong with them. The feeling is not that you're special for passing, but rather "special" for not.
I like the driving test analogy.
Miley? Did someone say Miley? I am all for more posts (and photos) of the mildly attractive, possibly wacky, member of the bench. I could read about her all day on here and be entertained.
ReplyDeleteWho is this Troy Fox you people often mention? The state bar's Web site says he works at a firm, Albright someone, but that firm's Web site has no mention of him.
ReplyDeleteTroy works for Dave Crosby. He's a nice guy but was an annoying gunner in law school. But I dont know why people pick on him so much. Its really really old.
ReplyDelete1:29 and 1:56
ReplyDeleteThere can be a number of reasons why people don't pass i.e., person could've lost a family member right before the test, they could've been in an accident before the test, or simply just nerves.
Just because you pass your driving test on the first try, does not mean you know how to drive. There's a reason why insurance is high in Las Vegas.
I agree with 1:27. Get over yourselves for feeling that you're better just because you managed to memorize the rules. It doesn't mean you know how to handle or manage a case.
12:51 and 1:56 = Grade A F%cktards.
ReplyDeleteAlthough the Nevada format is constant, the bar exam questions are different each and every time it's administered. Some exams are likely to have much harder questions than others (essays, MBE, MPT). If you passed the July 2007 bar, there are no guarantees you would have passed the February 2010 bar.
Also, many takers don't have the desire to take out a fat bar loan to pay for BARBRI (after having just borrowed $100K+) or they simply don't have the luxury to live off of mommy and daddy for 2-3 months while studying for the bar. For some, it's easy to forget about those takers who have to work, pay a mortgage, or have a family to feed are dealing with a lot more on a daily basis than simply learning what a 'holder in due course' is.
Beyond that there are people who just have uncontrollable anxiety or a difficult time taking tests in a timed setting (especially with cocky, mouth-breathing overachievers sitting at their table).
Ultimately, I don't think it's fair to label anyone as "special," lazy, or incapable of being a great lawyer simply because they didn't pass on the first time.
@2:33
ReplyDeleteI would be curious how many of the people who failed the exam (52%) had deaths in the family or were in accidents just before the test. Probably none. And if a lawyer caves under the pressure of a test, well, what happens to his or her client when he or she caves in court?
I agree with 1:56. I don't feel special because I passed the first time. But I would be hesitant to hire someone who did not.
What if someone passed the Nevada bar but failed the California bar? Would you still be hesitant to hire them?
ReplyDeleteTroy Fox is a dandiprat.
ReplyDeleteAs a multiple time NV bar exam taker, I'll chime in. There's two perspectives. There's a lot of ass-hats who don't have a clue how to practice law who passed on their first try. I went to law school with some, regularly work with some and the fact one passed on their first try doesn't automatically assure competency.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, not passing the first time doesn't equate incompetency automatically either. I don't think too highly of myself, but I'm told I'm well respected (haven't figured out why or how). But, I didn't pass NV on my first try. I have always and will always SUCK on multiple choice tests. Due to a dismal MBE score, I didn't pass my first time. In that experience, I recognized my weakness and resolved that issue, and then maintained that skill set (MBE mastery) to pass CA without studying a lick.
What I always find amusing is how this discussion exposes the most self-inflated overly egotistical of our profession.
I used to be ashamed to acknowledge the fact I didn't pass my first time through because I thought it mattered. But, after practicing for several years, I figured out it's kind of like law school ranking/grades - after your first job, no one really gives a shit and those who try to make it sound important are really just suffering from deep seeded inadequacy issues about their penis size.
Haha, well said 2:47
ReplyDelete2:49 if you're hesistant about hiring someone who didn't pass the first time, what a shame. Even if you hire someone who passed the first time, that person may have absolutely no idea how to apply law to a real situation or even the necessary people skills to even get clients.
I concur with 3:02
ReplyDeleteWhat is meant by Troy Fox being a gunner in law school? I went to law school with him and I don't know what you are saying 2:26.
ReplyDeleteThanks for any insight you can provide.
I just checked with the urban dictionary online. I bet this is what you meant regarding referring to Troy Frox as a gunner, right?
ReplyDelete'A person who is competitive,overly-ambitious and substantially exceeds minimum requirements. A gunner will compromise his/her peer relationships and/or reputation among peers in order to obtain recognition and praise from his/her superiors.'
Sorry for asking 2:26, I just figured out my own question. I know a little intellectually lazy; I just got through a deposition with a complete dbag atty - looking to rot for a few moments.
Retakers are sensative. Geez. 3:02, you failed because you were not prepared for the MBE, realized your weakness, and then you passed. In other words, you finally did the work.
ReplyDeleteYeah, yeah, grades/ranks don't matter after your first job. I hear that a lot from those on the bottom. For most people, their first job is going to set the tone for their entire career, penis concerns aside.
3:03 has a great point though. I think being a successful lawyer has a lot to do with personality.
On a totally different note, does anyone know what happened to Awand? Did he get jail time for the misprison (sp?) deal he took?
ReplyDeleteI'm really, really tired of people picking on Troy Fox. What did he do that was SOOO horrible to you people?
ReplyDeleteI went to law school with Troy Fox and he was nothing but nice.
@ 3:58 Troy?
ReplyDelete@3:59
ReplyDeleteNo, I'm not Troy.
Three guess about 3:02 - it's a chick, she's over 40, and law was her "second" career.
ReplyDelete@4:12
ReplyDelete3:02 here, 1 of 3 correct. Yep, chick. :o) Under 40 and law was my first career.
As for 3:19, I was in top half of my class, but not top 1/3. I enjoyed going skiing, going out for drinks, and otherwise having a life outside of studying. I figured that was my law/life balance. I could handle not being in the top 1/3 in exchange for not hating the 3 years I spent at law school.
But, I think we can all agree - just because you pass the first time doesn't make you a good lawyers. And just because you didn't pass the first time, doesn't make you a bad one either.
Although, I still stand by my opinion based upon observation - people who are so caught up with the fact that they passed the first time and feel compelled to dismiss people who didn't have bigger issues. Whether you passed the first time or the 14th, congratulations, you passed the bar, which means that you merely demonstrated your ability to pontificate in a manner which is utterly irrelevant to the actual practice of law. It's the manner in which you conduct yourself after you get that certificate framed an hung on the wall that will demonstrate your value to the profession.
4:32 here - failure to proof read your own rant only makes you look like an ass. *sigh* :o)
ReplyDelete@4:32, 4:12 here. Thanks for the info. I don't know you, but you seem nice. Take it easy.
ReplyDeleteGold jacket, green jacket, who gives a shit?
ReplyDelete3:02 PM: I would give a guarded and qualified agreement to your statement that after your first job, no one cares about your school or class rank - IF you're producing $$$.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's just me...but in my 10 years of practice nobody has asked me how many times I took the bar. For that matter, nobody ever asked me my class ranking. And I work for a national firm...
ReplyDeleteBut anyway, I judge the lawyers I have cases with based upon their ability and diligence. In general, I have no idea where my opposing counsel went to school, how they performed in school or how many times they took the bar.
I agree with 4:32 (3:02), and think it's great she had some work/fun balance in law school. I wish I had more fun while in school. It's been hard work ever since graduating.
And Jordan is right, once your working your ability to make $$ for your firm is what makes you valuable.
5:54 here. 4:32 is right, not proof reading my rant does make me look like an a$$:(
ReplyDeleteThe Bar exam made me a better person and prepared me for my calling as an attorney.
ReplyDeleteI think we should change the tone of this thread. Instead of the who's right and who's wrong, who's arrogan and who's not, chick 40's, Troy Fox debate.
ReplyDeleteLet's publicly rat out our colleagues who didn't pass the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time. Anonomously, of course.
A good friend of mine, who is also one of the smartest attorneys I know didn't pass the first time, but I did. By the way, that same guy that didn't pass makes almost twice what I make, and we are almost at the same experience level...
ReplyDelete4:12: I'm a chick, over 40, law is a second career, and I passed the bar the first time. And to all the overly-defensive crybabies, no, I don't think I am wonderful b/c I passed the first time or that doing so indicates a person will be a good lawyer. (In fact, I am probably mediocre but hopefully will get better with time and experience.) The bar exam does, however, tend to screen out a good number of people who don't put the effort into studying either because they are lazy or cocky and think they don't have to. Your client doesn't care if you get test anxiety or had a family member die. Much like the bar exam, they care about pass/fail, win/lose. Being able to manage time, pressure and bullshit you shouldn't really have to go through (while handling your own life/family/money issues) seems relevant to the ability to practice law. In no way would I say it is a good indicator of how well someone will do as any attorney, but bozos have to be weeded out somehow. That's not to say I think everyone who didn't pass the first time is a bozo, but I know several who fall into that category (and, a couple who took it multiple times and are quite good attorneys).
ReplyDelete@8:49, well put. Thank you for being the voice of reason.
ReplyDeleteThis is easily the stupidest 50+ comment thread in this blog's history.
ReplyDelete@3:02. What are these big underlying issues? If someone has a small intellectual edge on you it has something to do with an insecurity about a penis? And you don't think such a comment makes you obviously insecure? Don't hate your colleagues because they are a bit smarter than you. And I mean a small bit. The difference between a pass/fail is quite small. But don't pretend it doesn't bother you. Revel in your mediocrity. Like most of us.
ReplyDelete@9:26 - Seriously, Really?
ReplyDeleteJames Lee is a crazy?
ReplyDeleteNo wonder people hate lawyers. For those first-time passers who believe that they are superior to those who didn't, keep thinking that... Your arrogance is your biggest flaw and that makes it easier for me to spank you in court!
ReplyDeleteI am about to take the Bar for the third time and completely grateful for what my failures have helped me learn so that when I do pass I will hopefully be that much better! What are "they" afraid of? That is the real question. Maybe they realize that if they fail, their "expertise" is as great as they claim!!
ReplyDelete@8:40
ReplyDeleteGood luck. As in the immortal words of Townie "You Can Do It!"
Good luck to the repeaters!!! Don't let the arrogant first time passers get to you.
ReplyDeleteStudy hard and get that license.
Jordon is full of shit. If you are a 3rd year associate at a mid-regional billing $400,000-500,000 a year and you were the bottom half of your class a Boyd; you are at a HUGE disadvantage to similarly billing 3 year associate that was top of their class at USC and clerked for the 9th Circuit for a year.
ReplyDeleteSchool and ranking matter. only because partners want to be able to show off the pedigrees. Can't say to a potential Fortune 500 client "she is awesome, billed top 10% in the firm last year." But they will say "she was top 5% at a top 20 school and clerked for Judge Windbag"
exactly how is the placement biz doing right now? some asshats moving between firms?
It should matter if it takes you 1 time or 20 times to pass the bar. I give a pass to pregnant, death, birth, unavoidable car accident,etc. But shit, this was the basis for the three years of law school and the $100K in loans. you have others lives, finances, careers in your hands. If you can't figure out how to please a bar exam grader, how did you pass law school?
Just gonna spend Friday dreaming of my court spanking.
ReplyDelete9:38, is Miley involved in said spanking?
ReplyDelete9:36,
ReplyDeleteI think Jordan was talking about people that bring in business, make the firm money. I might be wrong and he's just talking about billing like crazy, but I read it as people who create money, not just cogs in the machine.
9:36 you mention "please a bar grader"...come on, a lot of people know who some of these bar graders are. One in particular has the same egotistical thinking as some of the other first time barpassers and is one of the worst to work for.
ReplyDeleteI didn't pass on the first try (I know that makes me a "ritard") and I went to Boyd (makes me an even bigger "ritard"). I'm going to go get some towels to put over my keyboard so I don't get blood all over it after I slit my wrists.
ReplyDeleteAll I know is it took a paralegal I used to work with 10 YEARS to get licensed. Seriously, she graduated law school in 99 and finally got licensed in 09. Would we hire her as an attorney after that having seen that she did a great job as a paralegal? Hell to the no. It does matter. Now is there a big difference between taking it one time or two? Not so much.
ReplyDeleteMay 21, 2010 1:18 PM is quite correct about my comment; I was referring to originations not billings. I would point out to May 21, 2010 9:36 AM that I quite agree that it does matter if one passed the first time before one has any appreciable book of business. School and class rank are both vitally important at this stage of one's career, although slightly less so here in Nevada than in LA, Chicago, NY etc. One of the first things I look for when examining a profile or resume of a prospective candidate is to look for a discrepancy between graduation and first admission. If they don't match, you'd better have spent a year with the Peace Corps.
ReplyDeleteAs for the placement business, I have more jobs than I can fill, a healthy practice in both Partners (the primary part of my practice) as well as a surprising amount of Associate business. It's not even half over and I expect 2010 to be my best year ever.
Thank you so much for asking!
Jesus! Are there any lawyers in this town who can spell, decline pronouns, conjugate verbs, and punctuate sentences at the same time?
ReplyDeleteJust anal-retentive folks who care about grammar on a freakin blog.
ReplyDeleteWhat is it to "decline pronouns?"
ReplyDeleteWho are you but some frustrated wannabee English teacher. Get a life. Who cares about grammar and punctuation on blog comments? Get over yourself.
ReplyDelete2:47 - Perfect! I love you!
ReplyDelete6:44 It is a blog, not a brief. Who gives a shit?
ReplyDeleteYou decline a pronoun politely:)
ReplyDeleteTo decline means to give the grammatical forms of a pronoun in the prescribed order, much like conjugating a verb. Declining pronouns, then, change form based on whether they’re in the subjective case, the objective case, or the possessive case.
ReplyDeleteMe think ya'll is ignorant for not knowing that.
p.s. did I mention I miss LU?
Judge Smails: Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.
ReplyDelete