After all of the publicity regarding Prof. Henderson and Boyd over the past week, I started reflecting on my time in law school. I remember when a P/F would have seemed like a crisis and I would have been concerned about whether it might impact my scholarship. Now, when I look back, there are so many things I wish I knew when I was in law school, which leads us to today's sidebar:
For the lawyers: What have you learned since you started practicing that you want to tell law students?
For the students: Got any questions? Knowing this bunch, I'm pretty sure we've got answers and opinions.
To reiterate, the purpose of the Sidebars is to start discussion in the comments. If you aren't into this type of post, please feel free to skip and we'll let you know as soon as we hear the next dirty rumor.
My own advice will be in the comments.
First, it's best for me to just admit this: I loved law school. I did not want to leave the safety of the law school nest. However, when I did, I felt completely unprepared for the reality of practicing law. Law school and "real life" practice were VERY different. So here is my advice:
ReplyDelete1. If you are going into litigation, the most important class on earth is civil procedure (or crim pro, depending on your area of practice). I don't think this was drilled into me as much as it should have been. I can say that Civ Pro is the subject I use on a daily basis.
2. Law school writing class really doesn't prepare you for things like drafting discovery requests. Seek guidance and look for forms.
3. Depending on what kind of firm you are in, different partners like different writing styles. One may like lots of hyperbole and another specifically say to paint a more precise picture and not muddy the waters. Get to know what style your bosses like and want.
4. My law school taught me nothing about billing my time. Find your firm's best biller and learn how they do it. Find out how our bosses want you to phrase certain things. Billing is an art that no one really teaches. An interoffice conference could become strategize regarding X.
5. Make sure you bill all of your time. In my first year, I wrote my time down before I entered my time. Enter it and if it needs to be written down, that is the billing attorney's decision. Don't self edit because you think you took too long.
If you are still in school, I think two of the most useful classes are Trial Practices and Pretrial Practices. They gave a small hint at what was waiting for me after law school.
Good luck to all of the law students. And good luck to everyone about to take the bar (you can and will get through it).
1. I liked gained a ridiculous amount of experience from Moot Court.
ReplyDelete2. Don't get into more debt than you have to for loans. Trust me, I am still struggling with this.
3. Good assistants are so important. An experienced assistant will be able to teach you many important things, particularly about local civil procedure rules (as Elle mentioned above).
Don't be a cocky young associate. Regardless of your rank in law school or your position on law review, the slate is wiped clean when you start practicing. Don't get a reputation for being a worm or a jerk early on. That can follow you. Especially in Vegas, where it is still a small legal community.
ReplyDeleteI work in the LV office of a large regional firm and, as a young associate, I heartily endorse Ms. Woods' advice. I write simply to emphasis a few of her points.
ReplyDelete1. For all you wanna-be litigators (like I was in law school)- Civ Pro. Learn it, love it. And, if you, like me, had a crappy Civ Pro prof. (I went to an out-of-state school, BTW- no knocking on Boyd here), start studying on your own. It will pay off, I promise.
2. Excellent advice about billing. Find that perfect biller and do what he/she does. The end. (Oh, and YES, bill ALL of your time.)
3. Lastly, again for you litigator-types (sorry my transactional friends), trial advocacy classes are fun, but pretrial practice is where it's at. There you will learn how to do much of what you'll be doing your first couple of years (and I don't mean they take you into the school's basement and give you boxes of documents to go through).
I would say don't waste your time taking "bar classes" that you aren't interested in. Fact is, you aren't going to remember much of what was taught come bar time, and Barbri does a good job of teaching what you need to know. Also, skip PMBR - not worth it.
ReplyDeleteTake classes that interest you and thank your lucky stars you aren't 5 days away from the bar right now.
The most important thing for new attorneys to realize is that they don't know anything. Even if you went to Boyd, and a 2d year associate went to Florida International (4th Tier), the 2d year guy is going to know way more than you (you may have a greater potential than the 2d year guy, but when you start you are the low guy on the totem pole).
ReplyDeleteLaw School writing classes give you the basics of legal writing, but don't teach you how to write a decent motion.
Until you have lived civil procedure, you will not truly understand it.
I think the most important advice law students is that grades really matter in the real world. The better your grades, the better attorney you will be. No Question.
ReplyDeleteClinic and appellate advocacy (or whatever they're called at other schools) were useful classes for me.
ReplyDeleteAlso, studying for the bar exam actually taught me more than perhaps my 3 years of law school combined.
Everyone has a different billing style, and I don't think you need to copy someone else's. The basics are: (1) don't lose your time, (2) be specific and phrase your bill in such a way that the client feels the charge is justified, and (3) separate your entries for each task, of if you need to combine them, specify the amount of time you spent on each task.
It is important to develop a good billing habit early on. For example, entering your time every day as opposed to at the end of the week/month.
Being a lawyer is not as bad/good as you might have thought. Depending on your work ethics, life can be really easy or really hard. However, I think most people agree that when you work hard and play by the rules, your work will pay off in the end. Nevada does not need more crooked lawyers.
If there is any way for you to do so, go to a state law school; they're much less expensive. And don't borrow money for law school unless you're going to a top, nationally recognized school (that means somplace everyone has heard of, sorry Boyd grads). Even then, borrow the minimum. Borrowing money for anything less is pure insanity!
ReplyDeleteIf you believe you MUST borrow money to go to law school, re-think law school.
Just out of curiosity:
ReplyDeleteAre the concerns over borrowing money for law schools arising as a result of the current status of the economy, or has there always been concerns?
I did not have to borrow anything when I went to law school, but I would think that if you wanted to be a lawyer badly enough, borrowing money is a small price to pay. On the other hand, if you wanted to attend law school simply because you didn't have anything better to do, then no, borrowing money does not seem to be a wise choice.
Any advice for a entering 3L from out of state that wants to relocate to vegas after graduation? Tips on how to find a job or anything else? Thanks
ReplyDelete1. Grades have no connection to reality, no one will care about them after your first job.
ReplyDelete2. Brush up the interviewing skills. Interviews are basically auditions and the only question the interviewer really has is "Do I really want to work with this person?"
3. Class participation is a myth. It's just a way professors can slam you if they don't like you. Do not worry about how much you comment in class, just be ready if you are ever called on, otherwise, keep your mouth shut.
4. No one likes gunners and they never crack the top third. Again, keep your mouth shut.
5. Hardwire in and use the uberfast internet connection to download the latest movies.
6. Make connections and network to get your job. You'll do much better that way than slogging through OCI's.
7. Schools know who their crap professors are and like to use them to teach required classes. What else can you do with a tenured professor who no one will willing take a class from? Be prepared for bad professors by arming yourself with sudoku, spider solitaire, or other similar diversions.
8. Install a chat program so that if you are called on unawares, your friends in class can feed you the answers. Make a joke or sarcastic comment to stall for a second while your friends type in what you need to say, then go to town.
Clinical programs are the most important part of law school. Get as many clinical courses as you can, and if possible try both civil and criminal practice during school.
ReplyDelete@ 10:21 am
ReplyDeleteI was like you, went to law school out of state but came here. However, I passed the bar before starting my interviews. I found a lot of employers were hesitant to hire someone who had not yet relocated to the area (and experienced a summer here). Getting over that hurdle can be challenging. Since I had the bar under my belt, it went a lot easier. But the issue would still come up. Be prepared to address the questions of why you want to work in Vegas and how serious you are about relocating.
Good luck!
Re: out-of-state 3L
ReplyDeleteI had the same experience, but I summered at local Vegas firms during both my 1L and 2L summer.
The question that everyone will ask you is why you want to move to Vegas. You should come up with a better answer than "I like to party late at night." Firms won't hire anyone who does not show firm intention to settle down in their city and stay for a long time.
If you have been following WWL, or the news generally, you'll know that the legal market is bad for job-seekers right now. Don't be surprised if you can't even get an interview at a firm. You should definitely have a plan B (clerkship is a good plan B. For some, it's even a plan A).
And if you're really committed to Vegas, take the Bar exam, regardless of whether you have an offer. That should help, from what 10:37 AM said.
Lastly, if you can go to another city, do so. I can't tell you how much I miss Chicago and NYC and regret being stuck in this town. No offense to anyone else.
To @ 10:21 am
ReplyDeleteThe 'problem' with hiring someone from out-of-state who has not lived in Vegas is that when the summer comes around, that someone often determines that he/she cannot stand living in the desert and no longer wants to live here. If you do not have any familial or past connection with Vegas, and have not lived here, you're in for an uphill battle.
That being said, if your background and credentials stand out above and beyond those who already live here (presumed to have just graduated from Boyd and survived two to three summers here already), and you went to a great school and did well, then you can probably get over that hump.
I know that when my firm, in one of those places east of Vegas, wanted to open an office here, they could not find a single person who wanted to move here from the main office as a result, all the partners & associates here were already in Vegas.
Many of these answers beg the question: Why DO people come-to/stay-in Las Vegas? It seems as though many view it as a compromise.
ReplyDeleteI suppose for me, having grown up here, the answer is that my family and friends are here. I had job connections here that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. It would have been tougher for me to establish myself somewhere else. I have a social and familial support system here.
But if you come from somewhere with a better quality of life(ie. just about anywhere), why come to Las Vegas?
I keep hearing professors say that networking is important, but no one ever tells us exactly how to network. Does anyone have advice on that for current law students and new law school graduates?
ReplyDeleteThanks!
I agree with those who advise not to borrow money for law school. Graduating with tons of debt and a degree from a place like Cal Western is a great formula for becoming a construction defect defense lawyer.
ReplyDeleteNetworking
ReplyDelete(1) It all begins in law school (if you are a Boyd graduate). Either use an externship or the clinic to start meeting judges and attorneys in the local community. Have something memorable to present about yourself, or you'll just be another aspiring law student they will quickly forget.
(2) Get involved! Join the CCBA, NTLA, or student organization that links with professional organizations outside of the school (sorry SELA, you don't count).
(3) Be Courteous. If you are the obnoxious law student (usually known by the student list serve), every person on the list serve will remember you for being a jerk. Networking becomes much more difficult because of the hole you've dug for yourself.
(4) Collect Business Cards and follow up. In general, attorneys love talking to law students and giving advice on how to succeed. Grab a business card, follow up with an e-mail, and try to keep in touch with the contact.
I'm curious why some of the posters responding to 10:21 seem to hate living in Vegas so much. As someone living in a Midwestern state where the winters are horrible, it seems putting up with the heat for a few months of the year (instead of cold and snow) wouldn't be so bad.
ReplyDeleteVegas also seems to be a fun place to live. Undoubtedly, if you lived there you wouldn't put up with going to the Strip all the time and dealing with tourists. However, the ability to go to shows, concerts etc. if you desire seems appealing. If you lived somewhere else, you can't do those things most weekends even if you wanted to. Thoughts?
All the posts about grades bear some grain of truth ONLY if you plan to stay in Las Vegas. Getting out of Vegas, whether for your first job or your fifth, will require you to have done well in school. This is especially true if you want to a major market (DC, LA, SF).
ReplyDelete@11:22
ReplyDeleteYou make it sound like people can just pick and choose where they get jobs. That type of flexibility really only exists for graduates of the elite schools.
I work at a large firm in town and most of the attorneys who came from out-of-town just simply saw Vegas as a place to get a job. They either had connections to the town or the credentials to get their foot in the door and this was their best option coming out of school.
@12:07
ReplyDeleteCan be a lonely place. Hard to meet people, especially people that aren't superficial. Economy is terrible. Not a lot of intellectual curiosity or culture. Etc.
@10:03
ReplyDeleteEven grads from the top schools are having a tough time getting a job so I personally think it's almost criminal for some real dumpy law schools to be charging students $35K a year knowing the odds of them getting -any- kind of legal work is going to be a long shot.
Imagine coming out of Cooley with $120K in law school debt and virtually no job prospects.
I thought Vegas was fun and refreshing when I first moved here (to be with family), but reality hit real fast.
ReplyDeleteI miss seeing tall buildings that are more than just casinos and half-finished condominiums. I don't like dealing with tourist crowds. I don't like the dry climate. I don't like paying a fortune just to have a lawn.
Yes, Vegas has great shows and entertainment, but other large cities have that too, along with culture and sophistication.
I am not trying to bash Vegas. Everyone has his/her own taste. For example, my spouse grew up here and loves Vegas (hence my moving here). But it's just not for me.
But I do have to say that career-wise, I am much happier than most of my peers in Chicago and NYC. Work is not nearly as hectic but much more rewarding. I love my co-workers, and I love the fact that the legal market here is generally intimate and friendly.
- 10:45 AM
Elle Woods and Legally Unbound are the same person. Just so ya know.
ReplyDeleteThe Elle Woods profile was created in June 2009 when everyone was protesting against the possibility of LU being added as a contributor. Note also that LU never posts on articles written by Elle Woods -- do you really think LU would be able to resist chiming in on an article such as this? LU provides us unsolicited advice on a whim, no way he/she could resist this one!
@ 1:42 PM
ReplyDeleteThat's scary >.<
Oooooooh, a conspiracy theory regarding me??? Really? Aww.
ReplyDeleteI have no way of proving it, other than by revealing my identity, but I swear on Bruiser Wodds that I am not Legally Unbound. Maybe Legally Unbound is in court or a depo today? LU has had a lot of recent content (I am a reader), so perhaps LU is no longer interested in us? LU, help me out here...
Woods. I know my dog's last name. I simply can't type.
ReplyDeleteLU = Elle Woods? Gimme a break 1:42 PM.
ReplyDeleteTo compare Woods' writing style with that of LU is just wrong, not to mention stupid.
-Not EW (or someone who knows her or thinks he knows her)
I agree with the last person. LU is far more articulate than I am and uses spell check before hitting publish. Or perhaps LU is a naturally gifted speller.
ReplyDeleteEither way, not me. Plus, if I was LU, that site would be pink with a dash of internet glitter.
Show us your tits.
ReplyDelete@5:00 - did you really just ask me to expose myself? I think you have me confused with another type of professional in the Las Vegas area. I may have participated in a Delta Nu wet tshirt contest, but that's in the past.
ReplyDeleteThere's a lot of advice on here for just a few questions. All I can say is PMBR is great.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't believing the LU=EW until EW said she reads LU's blog and LU is more articulate. Now I know it's true.
ReplyDeleteI still promise that I am not LU. I am, however, nice and I do like LU's blog. That does not make us the same person. I also read Underneath Their Robes and concede that Clerquette is more articule. I'm not Clerquette either.
ReplyDeleteIn response to one of the comments, I didn't like PMBR. It didn't add anything to my Barbri experience. But I also know many people who found it helpful.
Here are a couple of observations from a native Las Vegan, who has practiced in CA and DC and now teaches law.
ReplyDeleteCiv Pro is key for most practices, but as one poster noted it is hard to appreciate how the rules work until you've needed to use them. Teaching Civ Pro feels sometimes like teaching someone to ski by having them watch skiing movies. I have tried in other subjects to work in whole cases so that we can talk about the procedural posture not just the doctrine for that particular class. So if you weren't happy in Civ Pro you may still find litigation very rewarding.
I am not convinced that just because some clinical experience is good, more is better.
Learning to write well will help you as a lawyer over the years - in ways you may find difficult to appreciate now. The more you write, the better you get at it. I know Law Review isn't for everyone, but consider journal work if you haven't already.
Finally, I'd like to second the comments that counsel people to keep perspective. I've had academically talented students stagnate because they couldn't deal with the personalities in law, and less luminescent students find their passion and really take off.
I think grades matter. They may not matter after your first job if you are looking at small firm jobs, but even in Vegas, they matter in the national and regional firms. They will scrutinize your transcript and resume, even more so if you go out of state. If you want a job, want a big paycheck, your best chance of achieving that is great grades, journal membership, and national (not intramural) moot court experience.
ReplyDeleteTo the extent you can get experience in pre-trial practice (discovery, pleadings, motions) through work, clinics, or judicial externships, the easier your transition will be to litigation practice, but it isn't necessary. Moot court was the best training I received, as it required quality writing, and appelate arguments are much more similar to motion practice than mock trial arguments. Unless you go criminal, you will not be doing a trial for some time, but you will (hopefully) be arguing motions.
What you learn in law school has as much to do with practicing law as the LSAT had to do with law school.
ReplyDeleteOption 1: Take classes you enjoy and may actually want to attend. It'll increase your likelihood of getting decent grades.
Option 2: Take a bunch of bar classes that have commercial outlines then skip class and travel often. A few days before a final, read the commercial outline.
If you get bad grades using one of those options, go to work for the government for 2 to 4 years. You'll get better experience than any of your top-ranked classmates, then join the firm where the top-ranked people now are and take all of the good matters from them because you have experience and they don't.
Law school is a joke and teaches you nothing useful. So make good use of your time doing things you want to do and treat it as a 3-year vacation.
Unless of course you go to school that for some reason takes attendance, such as Boyd. In that case, you are screwed.
And the advice about going to a cheap school, take it.
I spent a ton on a top school. Yeah, it helped me to slack and get a great job right out of school. But with no debt I could have career flexibility. Instead I am locked in to the highest bidder for the first 15 years of practice.